Your comments on this are absolutely despicable. You know Tony and know his politics by now. At a time like this you would rather seek to burnish your own radical street cred by having a go at him for failing to adopt the appropriate ‘posture’, rather than understand and support his attempt to deal with a horrific event with the kind of sensitivity that describes maturity rather than immaturity.

Do we condemn individuals and groups roaming the streets of London looking for those who may or may not be mebers of the rmed services to murder. Yes or no

Do we condemn individuals and groups who demonise, and worse, the MUslim community because of the actions of these individuals or groups. Yes or no

Only when you’ve answered those two questions are you remotely capable of making a bridge to the dialogue on context and causes. Anything less is utterly cowardly and remarkably apolitical for a site called ‘socialist’. I’m genuinely shocked at the response of this site so far.

Mark P

Andy Newman: The Ed Husein phenomenon of an “anti-extremism” agenda sets up a series of loyalty tests; whereby it is insufficient to NOT be terrorists, it is necessary for Muslims to leap further hurdles by denouncing terrorism from others, and to denounce even the peaceful advocacy of the aims that the terrorists claim to be promoting, it is then necessary to denounce those others who do not denounce terrorism loud enough, and to denounce those who fail to oppose even the peaceful advocacy of the aims of the terrorists.

This is really important – part of the problem is that Muslims won’t be allowed to simply condemn or hate or be against something. It does end up meaning that their entire politics has to be taken apart – even demonstrating against Israel’s attacks on Gaza, for example, can be portrayed as giving space for extremism to flourish.

It’s basically a type of forced assimilation: They’re gonna keep on at you until you give up your opposition to what they do.

Given the fact that jihadi terrorism has its roots in political grievances addressed against US foreign policy in the Middle East, and now Afghanistan, then the worst possible response is to treat it as purely a political and technocratic security problem; this can only perpetuate the war for ever by ignoring the factors that cause it.

What is more, by demonising Islam in the West, then this increases the chances of a small minority of alienated and disillusioned people being attracted to jihadism, as their stake in our society becomes diminished. At the same time, Islamophobia which argues that the Islamic religion is inherently backward, can reduce the standing of influential mainstream Islamic figures and organisations opposed to jihadism. This is particularly evident with those liberals who seek to delegitimize mainstream Muslim organisations, like the MCB, and to dictate that only “good Muslims” who agree with the lifestyle choices of Guardian reading white liberals, should be listened to.

The Ed Husein phenomenon of an “anti-extremism” agenda sets up a series of loyalty tests; whereby it is insufficient to NOT be terrorists, it is necessary for Muslims to leap further hurdles by denouncing terrorism from others, and to denounce even the peaceful advocacy of the aims that the terrorists claim to be promoting, it is then necessary to denounce those others who do not denounce terrorism loud enough, and to denounce those who fail to oppose even the peaceful advocacy of the aims of the terrorists. The result is further delegitimisation and marginalisation of the concerns of Muslims, and a polarisation that makes it more and not less likely that a small unrepresentative minority might be attracted to terrorism.

A friend of mine asked whether the English Council of Britain will be explaining that not all English people support the English Defence League.

The absurdity of that statement, when compared to the now obligatory statements from Muslim organisations, should highlight the adverse situation that British Muslims face and the potential for it to deteriorate rapidly if people do not clearly state that the politicising of this terrible crime would be morally wrong – and counter-productive, even on the terms by which the establishment addresses “terrorism”.

I take great exception at you suggesting this is ‘grandstanding’ Tony has offered a sensible response tho’ I would still say change the text and see no good reason for doing so.

The moral relativism that infects some parts of the Left at moments like this is utterly apolotical and cowardly.

Its simple.

Don’t go round round stabbing those you think may or may not be members of the armed forces . Such actions should be utterly condemned, full stop.

Don’t use such actions by individuals or groups to justify either overt ot covert racism of the entire Muslim community.

We can only get to the crucial starting point of a conversation about causes and context once those two clear, equal and unconditional statemets are made. Anything else is the worst kind of… grandstanding.

Mark P

Mark P: Why do you have to explain ‘its possible to have sympathy’ it reads as if you are having to explain it, almost be apologetic. State it simply and boldy.

Stop grandstanding. Tony is right to be sensitive to the horror of what happened yesterday by factoring in the emotive and kneejerk response of many, many people.

I just had a conversation with a family member who was veering towards taking his anger out on Muslims in general, until I spent a few minutes talking him round. This is the reality of what’s taken place. Tony’s post reflects that reality.

I’m not keen on erasing something I wrote unless it’s factually wrong, especially cos in this case it’s a quote from somewhere else and it’s taking on a slightly different angle.

My post on Facebook came as a response to people who were only willing to condemn one and not the other; so my point was, it’s possible to do both. I do condemn both, I’ve got no issue with that – so let your point stand as an addition to what i said about what people can do, as well as what they should do. I hope that makes sense – I was making the point about what’s possible, to an audience which at that point was only seeing one possibility: To condemn Muslims. I’ll alter it to put quotes around it.

We’ll have more to say on it soon.

I have been to Greece on many occasions and I remember quite vividly at the time of the adoption of the Euro virtually all Greeks I spoke to were very keen on it. Were they taken in? Were they greedy? Were they motivated by a desire to re-join a notional western unity based on the past? Were they being hopelessly naïve? Maybe all of these? Who knows. What seems clear to me is that Greeks can’t claim by and large that they were tricked into joining the Euro. What is also clear is that large amounts of EU money was spent in the good times on hospitals and such like, but a lot of it was spent inefficiently to say the least because of corruption and creaming off by the upper/middle classes. Even now the state fails to collect anywhere near enough taxes from its citizens (with the exception ironically of public sector employees – a base which has now been massively eroded) with many self employed and richer Greeks simply failing to recognise the need of government to have taxation. Athens this year was heart breaking. I have never seen so many poor, homeless and drug addicted people in a European city before. Armed police road round in twos on new looking motor-cycles harassing anyone who looked foreign. Political graffiti was everywhere with the fascist stuff by Larissa station and the radical stuff by the university, although most of it was anarcho rather than communist or Syriza.

All of this and more should’ve put the KKE in a very strong position, but it hasn’t. I think you are right Vanya, their hostile, sectarian attitude to just about anybody else means they haven’t really broken into the big time. Their march separately, arrive separately attitude to demos is a case in point.

Nick Wright: there are no serious possibilities of a transitional stage and that a profound rupture with capitalist production relations must be accompanied by a complete accession to state power by the working class and a fierce defence of that power and its economic foundations

The problem with the above quote from Nick is not that the KKE may be wrong its just that they don’t seem to have any idea how to build the kind of large constituency required to access to power. And this obsession with leaving the Euro/EU is in my view a hindrance. Even now many Greeks are still supportive of the Euro partly because they can see as many problems with a neo-Drachma. In the south this year, which is admittedly traditionally more conservative poverty was less in evidence and there seemed to be a more resigned, lets wait and see attitude. How can the KKE persuade these people that they are right? And I accept that they may be. Besides which this is a cart and horse argument. If the revolutionaries were to access power its likely the Euro/EU situation would change rapidly, but constantly saying that your not going to “play” with anyone if they don’t agree about your view of the Euro/EU isn’t getting anywhere.

I have no criticisms of the strategic line of the KKE. They are the only political force in Greece that appears to focus on the the goal of working class political power, and that has a realistic and materialist conception of the state and its functions under both capitalism and socialism.
They deserve our admiration because, unlike almost every other left wing force in Greek society, they do not compromise their position for short term gain or popularity. They have their eye on the prize.
The ‘practical governmental solutions’ on offer to the KKE would have required them to make an unprincipled compromise over the EU and the euro. It is interesting how sections of the Syriza coalition and related forces are beginning to echo the KKE position.
I am not sure that it is possible to read back from the Greek situation at the moment, particular conclusions about the correct approach to take in British conditions (as does the Left Unity project).
The social weight of our working class, the deeper roots of social democratic opportunism and compromise with imperialism, the global role of British capital and the contradictions within the ruling class over the EU and, in particular, the greater resources of British capital compared to the Greek, shapes the crisis here rather differently. And to a different timetable.
Some things are the same. Firstly, the need for the working class to find a clear political expression in national politics and, secondly, the need for allies no matter how temporary or vacillating in day-to-day struggles.

Why do you have to explain ‘its possible to have sympathy’ it reads as if you are having to explain it, almost be apologetic. State it simply and boldy.

We have absolute and unconditional sympathy for a member of the armed services brutally murdered by thugs on the streets of London in this way.

We absolutely and unconditionally condemn the exploitation of this tragic incident by obvious racist groups such as the EDL and ill-considered media comment which in any way suggests this was a ‘Muslim murder.’

There should be no ifs, no buts, for either part.

Mark P

George Hallam: So why do you object when I contrast a left industrial strategy to one that will really work?

I think it is more a case that I don’t see the value in a strategy that seems to be completely detached from the broad opinion of the labour movement. We’ve already discussed the problems attending a critique of the EU from the left, the obvious divisions within the unions over whether Europe is salvageable. This seems to be an adjunct to that. As John Grimshaw said of Alex Gordon’s comments, it seems to confuse the form that capitalism is organised through for the substance.

It’s not surprising that UK imports consist of so many European sources. The EU is responsible for well over half of our trade, and when combined with the US and Japan, the industrialised triad constitutes over two thirds of our imports and exports. When you focus exclusively on small and medium businesses, of the quarter that regularly export goods or services, the EU as a destination approaches ninety percent.

If anything though, rather than showing an available means of developing substitute domestic industries, this shows just how much of a rupture with the status quo such a policy would represent. In that sense I don’t think an abstracted assessment of what will ‘work’ is very useful. The gap between what exists and what you’re proposing is too vast.

According to John Prebble, most of the military units deployed were recruited in Ireland from areas where Scottish troops had made themselves notorious in earlier disturbances.

Of course that was a tradtion maintained by the Black Watch in the 1970s as many people from West Belfast can attest to.

Anyone who wants to see an example of a relatively recent example of the role played by another one those regiments Salmond campaigned to save, in the military actions of the Empire could do no better than to google ‘mad mitch’. Not looked up ‘gollywog broaches’, but that could be interesting as well.

A question to Nick W- is your last point about the KKE a criticism of them?

To me their absolutist approach is a substitute for engagement in a practical govermental solution and frankly frustrates me, and would even more if I lived in Greece rather than simply holidayed here, as much if not more than the idealist approach of so many trots, particularly the SP.

In fairness, the SP did get it right on the oil refinary disputes, which highlighted the iniquities of the posted worker directive.

“The Syrian National Coalition (SNC) sought to bolster on Wednesday embattled rebel fighters in Qusair, who for a fourth day in a row came under fierce assault from forces loyal to the Assad regime [...] The Iranian-backed Lebanese group Hezbollah has been fighting alongside Syrian regime forces in the city and surrounding areas in Homs province for weeks.

“Forces from outside Syria aim to destroy Qusair and rebels should join the fight to rescue the city, George Sabra, acting head of the SNC, said. He also urged Lebanese authorities to respect Syria’s sovereignty and prevent foreign gunmen from crossing the border to fight in the civil war.”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/22/syria-opposition-rebel-fighters-qusair

So, it’s all about the Iranian & Hezbollah support of Syria’s government. And the absurd SNC call to prevent ‘foreign gunmen’ from crossing the border into Syria- given that the Syrian military opposition is utterly dependent on Jihadi gunmen from anywhere from Libya to Chechnya, financed by NATO, armed by Saudi Arabia & Qatar, and bolstered by the odd airstrike now & again from Israel- was promoted with a completely straight face.

Sam64: who stalk these pages

Stalk? Some of them comment, some less-aging ones write here. I’m sure they can answer the question too.

Nicely put George. Chicken and egg.