Indymedia Capitulates To The Anti-Semites And Holocaust Deniers

Guest Post by Tony Greenstein

Maybe it was a mistake to expect anymore of them, but Indymedia does describe itself as a ‘network of individuals, independent and alternative media activists and organisations, offering grassroots, non-corporate, non-commercial coverage of important social and political issues.’
Its Guidelines state, under Discrimination that:

posts using language, imagery, or other forms of communication promoting racism, fascism, xenophobia, sexism, homophobia or any other form of discrimination may be hidden.

This guideline however has been completely ignored. It is inoperative. Some people, not myself, had high hopes that the two day meeting in Nottingham on 9-10 January 2008 would resolve these problems. Instead it led to the resignation of at least one more member and the entrenchment of the supporters of anti-Semitism and holocaust denial in the collective, led by ftp and jackslucid.

Most people know the story. Gilad Atzmon, a racist ex-Israeli has been allowed to post freely to Indymedia articles justifying the holocaust Say no to the Hunters of Goliath and legitimising revisionist historians Esther to Aipac. Those who have sought to respond to these articles have had their replies hidden by ftp with the acquiescence or worse of the collective.

Instead the IM Collective has adopted a new category. Articles which some want to hide and some want to display openly are now ‘disputed’. On the night of 10th January the Hunters article was declared disputed and then readmitted and then disputed, with red slabs ‘disputed’ all over it. By the morning these had changed to feint pink! By the time this article had been written all that was left was a message saying the article was disputed but otherwise it could be read as if it were any normal article on IM.

What is particularly outrageous is that the IM Collective decided to ban Tony Greenstein from posting, for being honest with the hapless mods., but when it came to Gilad Atzmon a ‘block’ was put on such a proposal by our old friend Free the Peeps (Roy Bard). In other words regardless of whether there is or is not a majority the proposal didn’t go through. Result? The person who complained about anti-Semitism is banned and the anti-Semite is allowed to continue posting. And these people want us to believe they take racism serious?

And if to emphasise that the complainant was the problem the following was put in extra big letters!

Agree that what Greenstein has done and his campaign has been disruptive. All agreed this was the case. This is not a personal problem, it is a political problem. Responsibility of the collective to discuss this.

And who are the people that IM are defending? The minutes, which hide more than they reveal, apart from an inability to spell, contain a couple of sentences which sum up the problem:

‘There was a discussion about the anti-Semitism issue and indymedia’s definitions about what constitutes anti-Semitism.
Concern that this is a prelude to an increasing climate of hiding Palestinian articles or criticisms of Israel.’

And therein lies the rub. Zionists have for so long attacked supporters of the Palestinians and anti-Zionists as anti-Semitic, that now that the real anti-Semites are coming out of the woodwork, the IM Collective, and to be fair not only them, have difficulty in telling the difference between the genuine article and the person that the Zionists have defamed. It is the problem of crying wolf. But although the IM collective has little in the way of political theory or ideology, it isn’t that difficult telling the difference between a false accusation of anti-Semitism and the real thing.

Let us take the petition in support of Mary Rizzo and Gilad Atzmon which has even been hidden by Atzmon’s servile dogsbody, ftp:

Mary Rizzo, the editor of the anti-Semitic ‘peacepalestine’ blog posted the following comments on the Socialist Unity site vouching for the bonafides of one of the signatories to the above petition – The Radical Press:

‘The Radical Press presents thought-provoking and intelligent information and analysis. It is absolutely NOT anti-Semitic, but many who might not agree with its harsh critique on Israel might try to label it as such, so that people will create confusion between the two, and things never change.
I hope you realise that it is a valuable resource, and any campaigning made to insinuate that it is a racist site is not at all accurate.
Mary Rizzo

And indeed it is a valuable resource, albeit not for the reasons that Rizzo gives. It is valuable because it is instructive in the difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. And if anyone believes otherwise then they are welcome to dip their toe in its poisoned waters.

But what are the ‘thought-provoking and intelligent information and analysis’ that so impresses Mary Rizzo, who is not a woman to be easily impressed (except when it’s Atzmon who’s doing the talking)?

Well There are articles on the:
Jewish Banking Cartel (82) Jewish Holocaust Industry (77) Jewish Lobby (112) Jewish Media Monopoly (105) Jewish Porn Industry (50) Jews (148) Jews Behind Bolshevik Revolution

There is a delightful article by Brother Daniel on the same site. Entitled (what else?)

AMERICA IS RUN BY JEWS
By Brother Nathanael Kapner
Brother Nathanael bronathanael@yahoo.com
AMERICA IS NOW A JEW-RUN NATION. Here is a list of the prominent Jews who run America: [I wont bore you with the list] Elsewhere we learn that ‘Judaism is a “chameleon” culture/religion. It “becomes” whatever is necessary in order to deceive and trick non-Jews’

Or take for example: the following:

This unsung swan song slaughter of our beautiful white people, sadly at the behest of many white women who choose to abort their babies, seems to be an unremarkable fact that hardly makes a ripple in the Jewish media, except when they are portraying pro-life activists, many of them Christians, as rabid, back-scratching Luddites, poised to pose theocracy and a Christianized style of Sharia law on the rest of us.
But everything related to the abortion racket reeks of Big Jewry, from the way the debate is framed (always hopelessly one-sided and favorable to the pro-aborts) to the effortless precision with which the abortionists continue to reap big profits with a “hands-off” approach from the usually vigilant and overzealous governmental regulators, who issue nothing but “red tape” to other industries, but leave abortion clinics unmolested.
If Jews rarely fight in America’s wars (deferments) many of them can be counted on to be the top generals in America’s other killing fields, our abortuaries, where white children are killed off and their organs often harvested and sold for easy cash and profit,
‘Jewishness of the homosexual mafia that has mainstreamed perversion and has inundated our schoolchildren with falsehoods about the joys of sodomy and anonymous sexual encounters. The sad reality is, many people are woefully unaware of just how radical and well-organized the sodomite lobby has grown. They have infiltrated our schools, they have edged their proselytizing propaganda into curriculum geared toward kids, beginning at the kindergarten level and continuing all the way through high school, just to make sure that the brainwashing sticks in their minds permanently. This is no accident.

The recruitment and sloganeering work done so assiduously by homosexual snake oil salesmen and women in our government-run socialist perversion mills has paid off with big dividends as polls have shown. Most teens in America have a far more favorable view of homosexuals than their parents or grandparents ever did. But this is the Jewish way. Brainwash, propagandize and then recruit, recruit, recruit like hell! But as Jewish homosexual organizations try to indoctrinate sexually confused young people into the gay death style there seems to be more at work here than simple “tolerance” or “diversity” issues. This is an effort to tear asunder the notion of “traditional family” that has been the bedrock of Western survival. Though not all homosexual enthusiasts are Jewish, their leaders surely are.

One wonders whether the IM collective would recognise the above as anti-Semitic, homophobic and sexist? Chances are that ftp and the useful idiots who support him would no doubt think that it was just a case of exuberant anti-Zionism. One wonders whether the women (are there any women left?) on the collective recognise that a statement such as ‘Abortion is a modern and grisly Jewish death trade’ could come straight from Streicher’s Der Stuermer?

These are the sick people that the IM Collective have hitched their wagon to. Instead of junking FTP, Phunkee and Jackslucid they have instead decided to give a free pass to genuine fascists and anti-Semites.

Yes, after months of battling to get the Indymedia collective to bar holocaust deniers and anti-Semites from posting articles, we have a situation now, after their meeting at the weekend, whereby anti-Semites are welcome and their opponents are banned!

Below are 2 articles here and here which result from the fallout from the meeting in Nottingham at the weekend. Naturally they are hidden,
The Indymedia fellow-travellers with racism and anti-Semitism are incapable of telling the difference between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism. Some of them think they are doing Palestinians a favour by publishing this sort of garbage.
There is nothing the Zionists love better than to demonstrate that supporters of the Palestinians are anti-Semitic. Indymedia UK has now done all it could to prove them right.
Tony Greenstein

56 comments on “Indymedia Capitulates To The Anti-Semites And Holocaust Deniers

  1. An Amateur Anthropologist on said:

    For those of us who have not been able to follow the minutae of this debate, could the author of this latest blog article explain to SU readers why he believes that Gilad Atzmon “justifies the holocaust” in his article entitled “Saying NO to the Hunters of Goliath”?

    An Amateur Anthropologist

  2. andy newman on said:

    Atmon writes:

    the Zionist interpretation is engaged with nothing more than the concrete symptom, with the simplest manifestation of the animosity that surrounds it rather than with the core of the problem itself. Hitler was indeed defeated, Jews are now more than welcome in Germany and in Europe, yet, the Jewish state and the sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in the Middle East as their grandparents were in Europe just six decades ago. Seemingly, it is the personification of WW2 and the Holocaust that blinded the Israelis and their supporters from internalising the real meaning of the conditions and the events that led towards their destruction in the first place. Would the Zionists understand the real meaning of their Holocaust, the contemporary Israelite may be able to prevent the destruction that may be awaiting them in the future.

    Atzmon clearly argues here that it was the behaviour of the Jews that led to their destruction. Atzmon argues that there will be peace in the Middle East only if the Israelis learn the lesson of why Jews were so unpopular that the nazis murdered them.

    This to me clearly rationalises the holocaust as being the fault of the Jews, and also threatens them with a new holocaust.

  3. Jim Carroll on said:

    Tony is to be congratulated for his campaign on this issue. As long as scum like Atzmon are clearly denounced the lie can be given to those who equate anti zionism with anti semitism. One hopes there will be no repeat of the SWP inviting him to Marxism.

  4. Andy – Atzmon has clearly stated the real meaning of the Holocaust is “No more Holocausts” – you have to work hard to get a meaning that anything the victims did justified the Holocaust. This is Greenstein’s own sick interpretation, and its incredible that you are incapable of viewing the text independently and coming to your own considered opinion.

    Meanwhile, here are some of the inaccuracies in the Greenstein rant:

    TG” Some people, not myself, had high hopes that the two day meeting in Nottingham on 9-10 January 2008 would resolve these problems. Instead it led to the resignation of at least one more member and the entrenchment of the supporters of anti-Semitism and holocaust denial in the collective, led by ftp and jackslucid.”

    The meeting was in February – no-one resigned and jackslucid is not, and has never been in the collective. Nor was he at the meeting.

    TG”Most people know the story. Gilad Atzmon, a racist ex-Israeli has been allowed to post freely to Indymedia articles justifying the holocaust Say no to the Hunters of Goliath and legitimising revisionist historians Esther to Aipac. Those who have sought to respond to these articles have had their replies hidden by ftp with the acquiescence or worse of the collective.”

    Atzmon says that he has never posted an article to Indymedia. In open publishing anyone can publish an article under any name, and as IMC UK doesn’t log IPs they can do so anonymously. Greenstein did respond to the Hunters article, the comments were visible until recently. There was a post http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/01/389744.html, where Greenstein pushed the views of a Holocaust Denial site and the hidden article, besides falsely claiming that Atzmon is an “open Holocaust Denier” (he isn’t) the hidden article is compiled of comments from that thread – it breaches 3 IMC UK guidelines – non news/inaccurate/repeated content. If Tony wasn’t so incapable of understanding text he would realise that. Personally I think he does know that, and is trolling. IMC UK has never been as keen as Socialist Unity to be consumed by the Greenstein campaign against Atzmon. It isn’t what the site exists for.

    TG”Instead the IM Collective has adopted a new category. Articles which some want to hide and some want to display openly are now ‘disputed’. On the night of 10th January the Hunters article was declared disputed and then readmitted and then disputed, with red slabs ‘disputed’ all over it. By the morning these had changed to feint pink! By the time this article had been written all that was left was a message saying the article was disputed but otherwise it could be read as if it were any normal article on IM.”

    That’d be February then? We have mirrors, they aren’t all in synch. ‘Disputed’ is how the editorial collective decided that the article should be displayed. It has been faint pink since it was changed due to being unreadable.

    TG:”But although the IM collective has little in the way of political theory or ideology, it isn’t that difficult telling the difference between a false accusation of anti-Semitism and the real thing.”

    Leaving aside the sectarian slur, you might like to reflect on your own thread on anti-semitism. Is their ‘Socialist Unity’ on that thread, or is there a debate going on, with real differences?

    TG:”What is particularly outrageous is that the IM Collective decided to ban Tony Greenstein from posting, for being honest with the hapless mods.,”

    Did they? It’s news to me. The proposal was blocked.

    The fact that TG reports things I know about so unreliably, is one of the reasons I don’t trust his analysis. As it goes, I don’t trust yours either 🙂

    In terms of the Radical Press – I am clear that it carries material I consider to be racist and anti-semitic. I wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole.

  5. goodwin sands on said:

    ftp @ 4: ‘I wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole.’

    Yet Ms Rizzo embraces it and praises it quite highly and she specifically defends it against the charge of racism. What does this tell you about Rizzos apparently non-existent ability to detect anti-semitism? If anti-semitism ever does become a major element of the progressive left, it will be the ethical blindness of the Rizzos which made it possible and facilitated it.

    The problem is Mary gets into these paroxysms and completely loses the ability to think critically the moment you whisper ‘I hate zionists’ into her ear. Then she can no longer spot the anti-semitism of ‘radicalpress’, the quite barefaced Holocaust denial of Paul Eisen, or the thinly veiled anti-semitic discourse of Gilad Atzmon.

    Indymedia was correct to put Atzmon in the bad box. A pity it took so much effort to do. Banning Atzmon altogether would have been better of course but pragmatically impossible – and that impossibility has rightly caused Indymedia UK members to rethink their participation in the enterprise as a whole.

    Congratulations to Indymedia UK for doing about as much as they could do to marginalise Mr Atzmon.

    I suspect some of the hidden comments Tony G points to are simply trolls.

  6. “What does this tell you about Rizzos apparently non-existent ability to detect anti-semitism?”

    Dunno – I could make something up, but it wouldn’t be helpful. I can see why anyone who has been demonised and hounded for as long as she has, might not always get it right. Her demoniser certainly gets things wrong most of the time. Which is why his perpetual tantrums only serve to create more heat than light. And Andy cheerleads this sorry self-defeating cyber-stalking campaign.

    ” the thinly veiled anti-semitic discourse of Gilad Atzmon.”

    Careful now, theres all these threads claiming he is out and out anti-semitic and now you’re saying its not that straight forward.

    Way to set the cat amongst the pigeons – Goodwin Sands the zionist is closer to my position than Andy. Tony will no doubt twist this into somthing well juicy……..

  7. goodwin sands on said:

    Sorry but thats not sufficient ftp.

    Mary supports and endorses a site even you find quite obviously racist. Your response if I’m reading you right is to blame Tony Greenstein. Thats rot.

    And I do think that Atzmon is out and out anti-semitic, as would you I believe if you knew more about the history of anti-semitism. One cant laugh at John Cleeses Mr Hilter without knowing who Hitler is; one cant spot the continual recrudescence of the old bogies under similarly laughable ‘disguises’ in Atzmon without knowing their history.

    I think you have done Indymedia a deep disservice.

  8. prianikoff on said:

    Due to the interminably long thread on “Antisemitism is a real problem”, where Atzmon, or someone using his name appeared, people may not have noticed the fact that he joined forces with “Mikey” who is a pro-Israeli poster trying to dig dirt on Greenstein and Rance, leading PSC members and smear them.
    I don’t agree with all of Tony Greenstein’s politics, but it strikes me as remarkably odd that someone who professes to be a supporter of the Palestinians would do this. It has to raise questions about what his real agenda is.
    Is he actually an “antisemite”, or is he an Israeli Katza? (google it)

    “Indymedia” is an unaccountable body run by unaccountable people and could well be heavily infiltrated by all kinds of spooks.

  9. Goodwin

    I don’t care what you think.

    My concerns are to do with things you wouldn’t understand.

    I thought a website was okay once, and said so. Someone pointed me to a section I hadn’t seen. I didn’t think it was okay after that, and said so.

    So, I know mistakes can happen.

    I am not accountable for anyone’s actions other than my own.

    If Greenie was capable of rational and calm debate on this subject, things may have turned out differently. Who knows?

    Anyway, Tony Greenstein says most claims of anti-semitism by zionists are false.

    You are a zionist, no?

  10. “Indymedia” is an unaccountable body run by unaccountable people and could well be heavily infiltrated by all kinds of spooks.

    Yes – of course.

    “Socialist Unity” is an unaccountable body run by unaccountable people and could well be heavily infiltrated by all kinds of spooks.

    🙂

  11. goodwin sands on said:

    Youre demonstrating again the depth of your opposition to anti-semitism by showing how easy it is to push you into the cant-be-bothered. Mary Rizzo endorsing an anti-semites fever dream of a site? Ho hum, so wot, it’s all Tony Gs fault, whats on telly?

    I support the Palestinian right to self-determination in the form the majority of Palestinians say they want it: the two-state solution. As I recall youve called Tony G a zionist so I’m not overly concerned by whether you apply the same label to me.

  12. Jock McTrousers on said:

    This site should change it’s name to ‘Tony Greenstein and pals’ or ‘anti-socialist disunity’. This site has deteriorated, in the 2 months I have been aware of it, to the point where it makes Harry’s Place look sane.

  13. prianikoff on said:

    “Socialist Unity” is an unaccountable body run by unaccountable people and could well be heavily infiltrated by all kinds of spooks.

    The spooks here are fairly obvious, besides which some of the contributors here hold, or have held positions in the labour movement (including me) and I know of them by personal recommendation. Indymedia on the other hand is no such thing.
    It’s a forum for direct action types who can easily be manipulated.

  14. An Amateur Anthropologist on said:

    I have read, re-read, mulled over and then returned to, the paragraph cited in 2 (above) by andy newman. I cannot see how what Atzmon is quoted as saying can be viewed as condoning or supporting the holocaust.

    I would go as far as saying that it is a bizarre interpretation. Therefore, I am left with the impression that there is another agenda at work here, one different from the simple exposing of anti-semites, nazis and holocaust deniers. Unfortunately, I have gained the impression that this debate is occurring here because Gilad Atzmon associates with/works with Martin Smith, and may also work with other members of the SWP. I am not a supporter of the SWP, indeed I am a fierce critic of that organisation. However, to smear it as anti-semitic by association, through a tenuous attack on Gilad Atzmon, does socialist unity a disservice.

  15. Contrary to the comments by prianikoff, (post #8) I have never “joined forces” with Gilad Atzmon. I have made it clear on numerous occasions that I detest the policies of Gilad Atzmon and I have also made it clear that I also detest the policies of Tony Greenstein.

    As I summed up my views here:

    http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/archives/2007/11/21/jews_and_jew_haters_the_antizionist_jewish_squabble.php

    “One wonders who sane and rational people should support in this dispute [between Greenstein and Atzmon]. Should they support Tony Greenstein who wants “the state of Israel to be destroyed” and who thinks that Hamas and Hizbollah are not anti-semitic or Gilad Atzmon who is happy to support Hamas, wants Israel to disappear, and who also thinks burning down a synagogue is a rational act?

    I have no idea, but no doubt, this argument is set to run and run.

    In the interim, I am looking forward to my holiday next month in Tel-Aviv. “

    I wrote those words 2 1/2 months ago and my prediction that the argument was set to run and run seems to be proven correct.

  16. Well, here I am to clear up Tony’s fretting, but first let me mention that around 200 activists for Palestine and Palestinians have signed the petition asking him to cease the attacks, and what does he do? He keeps them going.

    Ok. Just wait until he sees the comments, which will be set up. They will not put a smile on his face. He better cling on tight to SU, because it’s the last bastion.

    Now, “my anti-Semitism”. No one has ever ever ever been able to find a single thing I have written that is Anti-Semitic, on thousands of forums posts or anywhere else. Nor any posts that I have put into the blog as Anti-Semitic, not counting Tony stating they are and not being able to back it up. But, he keeps up with the character assassination. The man is ill.

    If we are talking about other sites, The Radical Press had come under pressure by some people who wanted it to be closed down. Knowing who most of these people are, it was easy enough for me to assume they were considering things in a way that was jaundiced. It was odd that it was Anti-Zionist Jews doing it, not Zionists… This happens far too often for me to believe it is simply accidental. The Radical Press explained to me that they were an anti-Zionist site and that they were dedicated to the Palestinian cause. So, I went to the site, took a look, not deeply, basically into a few issues on Palestine that were good, because I don’t have all the time Tony, andy and Goodwin have, and it looked fine to me. I am not responsible for the content they have, nor am I their editor. I am another blogger and I defend the rights of bloggers dedicated to the Palestinian cause to do what they do, who come under attack far too often. If they are being forced to change because of pressure, I will defend them to NOT have to endure pressure. I don’t see Tony running around to close ZIONIST blogs and sites, not in the slightest, so I am not going to campaign to have Pro-Palestinian ones shut down. Each blog or site is the image of the creator, not the reader, so I believe that if we value the fact that creators select material that they wish, this is their right. Why should I feel ashamed to defend an editor in a site? I can’t vouch for the entire site, and why should I? Who am I, the thought police? I can find Brother Kapner’s article a total piece of shite, and it probably is, but I am not about to waste time to investigate every article on Jews, nor read them because someone wants me to express some opinion. It simply is not that interesting to me. I look at the value of a site in how they are able to express the Palestinian cause as being the result of Zionism and of the lack of awareness as to what Zionism is. I am not going to delve into the rest, because my time is limited.

    I would like to see some action of Tony shutting down one Zionist, besides the ones that bash him on a personal level. It seems these sites CREATE NO PROBLEM FOR HIM. interesting.

    In fact, Ftp pointed out a very interesting detail. In order to smear Gilad, where did Tony get his information from???? A Holocaust Revision site. They themselves got it from Press TV, an Iranian disinformation site!!!! Now, I never would have known about this, because I read NEITHER Of these sites, but Tony circulated this information as if it was Gospel from here to eternity. Yes, Tony circulated stuff from HD sites… Apparently, he finds useful things there?

    Now, he also was informed that the content was not even correct, (ahahah!) and he still persisted, hoping people would be sleeping…

    Well, Your Honour, if the Kangaroo Court is ajourned to another session, I have some cooking to do. Ciaociao

  17. goodwin sands on said:

    Mary open your eyes.

    “If they are being forced to change because of pressure, I will defend them to NOT have to endure pressure.”

    If the pressure is from antiracists because RadicalPress is plainly a Holocaust denial site, you would rather that they remain a Holocaust denial site than be pressured by antiracists into not being a Holocaust denial site? WTF, Mary?

    Exactly what I mean about your uncritical paroxysms.

    How many signatories of your list are Holocaust deniers Mary? You dont care, do you?

  18. prianikoff on said:

    #16 Mikey “Contrary to the comments by prianikoff, (post #8) I have never “joined forces” with Gilad Atzmon.”

    Well Gilad Atzmon seems to want to join forces with you. Or are you saying this quote from him is false?

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    “Mikey, can you provide us with the criminal record of this Bugger-Rance. Is he on spent conviction like greenie (Tony Greenstein), or is he just an ordinary liar?”

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Perhaps you could arrange to meet him in a pub and clarify the situation over a shot of bronfen. (not too much though)

  19. goodwin sands on said:

    mary @ 17: “I look at the value of a site in how they are able to express the Palestinian cause as being the result of Zionism and of the lack of awareness as to what Zionism is. I am not going to delve into the rest, because my time is limited.”

    David Irving also claims he is fighting international zionism. Perhaps you can get his signature as well?

    What you dont understand Mary is how completely your blindness on anti-semitism completely defeats any possibility you have of accomplishing anything or reaching a larger audience. *You* may consider it irrelevant that your pals indulge in Holocaust denial. But youll find that this is quite the minority view.

  20. prianikoff,

    I do not believe you know me but my hobby is meeting extremists. I have met a number of them in all different fields. I even have attended Jews Against Zionism meetings and heard Tony Greenstein ramble on his rubbish. I have been to demonstrations in London and heard people shout out support for the murderous organisation Hizbollah. I have a substantial collection of material that I have picked up over the years from meetings of extremists.

    I am not the only one who does this.

    I suggest you read the following book:

    Jon Ronson, Them: Adventures with extremists (London: Picador, 2002)

    Just because I meet an extremist, does not mean to say that I agree with them, it is all part of my hobby and research.

  21. Joepolitix on said:

    thecutter wrote: “Now, “my anti-Semitism”. No one has ever ever ever been able to find a single thing I have written that is Anti-Semitic, on thousands of forums posts or anywhere else.”

    I’ve just had a quick flick through your blog and I notice that you post a hatchet job by the conspiracy crackpot Carolyn Baker which is absolutely shot through with anti-semitic innuendo (and contains the old anti-semitic rhetorical trick of justification of blaming the jews for everthing whilst silencing anyone from replying, as this would only confirm the unspoken premise: that Jews are overprotected in society or even worse that Jewish media controllers are obsessed with silencing any criticism of their own). You describe it as “one of the most enlightening pieces I’ve read in a long time”.

    It doesn’t take a conspiracist to conclude that you endorse anti-semitism.

    P.S the HP Sauce headcases that are now congregating here are even worse.

  22. Perhaps the admin won’t post the list here, (they treat it as automated) perhaps due to many links. Anyway, sans list, here is the rest.

    So, Tony was talking about laughing last and stuff, so sure that everyone would cave into his pressure. Well, anyway, not to rub salt into the wound, but the open letter has these signatories. I think Tony has already defied all of them by continuing the smear campaign. He has decided he is going to break Redress and have his unions do his personal bidding because they support the letter, but will he have the stamina to attack and defame each and every one of these people who signed? Oh sure, some he will find it to be right up his alley. The Holocaust victim, Uri Avnery’s Translator, the PSC, ISM-France, Al-Awda Italy, Anti-Imperialists, Dissident Voice, Anarchists Against the Wall, the Palestinian bloggers, which number about 20 here… well, with them, he will have a little more work on his hands: All the links are visible on http://peacepalestine.blogspot.com

    Still waiting for him to start campaigning against Zionist writers and blogs. Will that ever happen??????

  23. what? that Baker article is anti-Semitic, like… where precisely?

    And Goodwin, smoking out those who you force to deal with your obsession has wasted enough of my time. I explained my position, is it necessary to drag me over the coals now? What will that get you, A Tony Brownie Point?

    Get a life.

  24. #15 “an amateur anthropologist” – you calim that you have read and re-read the passage from Atzmon without fonding any minimising of the holocaust within it. Let us look at it again:

    sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in the Middle East as their grandparents were in Europe just six decades ago. Seemingly, it is the personification of WW2 and the Holocaust that blinded the Israelis and their supporters from internalising the real meaning of the conditions and the events that led towards their destruction in the first place.

    What is the common feature between the Jewish victims of the holocaust and the Israelis today? Almost the only factor is their shared Jewishness. So what is Atzmon getting at?

    What was the “real meaning of the conditions and the events that led towards their destruction”, and what has it to do with israel today?

    I think the anti-Semitism is so strong you can smell it and taste it.

    However, Tony Greenstein does go too far in saying Atzmon “justifies the holocaust”. He doesn’t argue it was justified, only that it was the Jews’ fault.

  25. Andy

    Please quote the exact bit where Atzmon says it was the “Jews’ fault”. I can’t seem to find it. I’m sure it can’t be a product of a jaundiced imagination, or something like that……

    Thanks

  26. goodwin sands on said:

    @24 ‘I explained my position, is it necessary to drag me over the coals now?’

    When your response is so ethically vacuous, its not wrong to point out its vacuity.

    You cant be bothered to repudiate hate sites even when they’ve been pointed out to you *and you’ve endorsed them*. How is anyone supposed to take you remotely seriously on anything remotely related to Jewish issues when you unapologetically hang about Holocaust deniers? ‘Yes, RadicalPress thinks the Holocaust didn’t happen – but the *rest* of the site is brilliant and incisive!’

    I think its time to step outside your echo chamber Mary.

    @25 ‘However, Tony Greenstein does go too far in saying Atzmon “justifies the holocaust”. He doesn’t argue it was justified, only that it was the Jews’ fault.’

    An important distinction and I think a correct one, and a position Atzmon has reiterated.

  27. goodwin sands on said:

    @ 26 Enoch Powell: ‘As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding; like the Roman, I seem to see “the River Tiber foaming with much blood.”‘

    Ftp, please find the exact bit in that quote where Powell calls for interracial violence. I cant seem to find it. I’m sure it cant be a product of a jaundiced imagination…

  28. ftp

    You have personally argued that someone (Nimmo) should not be stigmatised just because he describes the fact that there were gas chambers at Auschwitz as “discredited”, and Nimmo also links to anti-Semitic sites from his blog. So you don’t have a lot of credibility.

    Paul Eisen argues that the evidence for gas chambers at Auschwitz is not very good. Atzmon defends Eisen.

    Atzmon calls Jews Christ killers, etc. So the context for interpreting Atzmon has been set by the man himself.

    When i read him saying

    ” As it seems, more and more people in wider circles are now reacting critically, politically and ideologically to Israel, Zionism, Jewish tribalism and the atrocious inhuman policies that are implied by Jewish nationalism and its political and cultural offshoots. … … sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in the Middle East as their grandparents were in Europe just six decades ago. Seemingly, it is the personification of WW2 and the Holocaust that blinded the Israelis and their supporters from internalising the real meaning of the conditions and the events that led towards their destruction in the first place. “

    I read that as saying that “Jewish tribalism” (i.e being Jews) and its “political and cultural offshoots” leads to the “inhuman policies” of “Jewish tribalism. And that the Israelis today need to learn the lesson of why they are as unpopular today as Jews in Nazi Germany were.

    The lesson they should learn is to abandon not only political Zionism, but also in Atzmon’s words “Jewish tribalism and the atrocious inhuman policies that are implied by Jewish nationalism”. But we also know from other writings of Atzmon that he regards anti-Zionist Jews as part of Jewish tribalism.

    So it is not enough that they should give up being Zionists, they must also give up being Jews.

    And if they don’t give up “jewish Tribalism” according to Atzmon, they have got it coming to them.

    in my mind what makes Atzmon a clear anti-Semite is the fact that he demands all Jews should renounce Jewish identity.

    What he also does is flirt with language, on the cusp of holocaust denial, but never quite coming out with it. Yet at the same time defending Paul Eisen who is an open holocaust denier.

    The main function of Atzmon, (and you are an example of this, ftp) is to blur the distinction ebetween the Palestinian solidarity movement, and the fruit cakes, weirdos, neo-Nazis and other scum of the holocaust denial and anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists.

  29. Erm, that seems to be a different speech by a different guy.

    Perhaps it’s the way you view the world that leads you to that conclusion. It isn’t my reading, and it isn’t what I think he says. Maybe one’s reading of the text says more about one than about Atzmon……..

  30. goodwin sands on said:

    29 @: Henry II: ‘Who will rid me of this troublesome priest?’

    Ftp, please find the exact bit in that quote where King Henry II calls for the death of Thomas Becket. I cant seem to find it. I’m sure it cant be a product of a jaundiced imagination…

  31. #31 was a response to goodwin.

    I know that Andy is keen on convicting on the slimmest of circumstantial evidence, but it still seems like a strange reading, .

    Anti-zionists have hardly left zionism behind, have they? They are defined by it.

    At one point does critique of one’s own culture become racism in your view?

  32. goodwin sands on said:

    30 @: ‘What he also does is flirt with language, on the cusp of holocaust denial, but never quite coming out with it.”

    Something that could be explained, if it were rare, by coincidence but which because of its frequency is plainly intentional. One might accidentally brush against that bit of ground now and again, as ftp has, but Atzmon has built his house there.

    If someone knocked a golf ball through your front window, that could indeed be an accident. When the tenth golf ball off the same player’s same club goes through the same window, only a fool would see anything but intent.

  33. #33
    29 @: Henry II: ‘Who will rid me of this troublesome priest?’

    Well, ‘rid me’ means ‘kill’ and ‘troublesome priest’ means Beckett.

    That was easy – you can do the Atzmon text now……

    thanks

  34. #34

    “If someone knocked a golf ball through your front window, that could indeed be an accident. When the tenth golf ball off the same player’s same club goes through the same window, only a fool would see anything but intent.”

    This is even better. You’re now going to quote 10 instances where Atzmon says that the Holocaust was the “Jew’s fault”?

    That would be very convincing evidence……

  35. Joepolitix on said:

    Atzmon wrote:

    “sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in the Middle East as their grandparents were in Europe just six decades ago. Seemingly, it is the personification of WW2 and the Holocaust that blinded the Israelis and their supporters from internalising the real meaning of the conditions and the events that led towards their destruction in the first place.”

    In response Andy wrote:

    “What is the common feature between the Jewish victims of the holocaust and the Israelis today? Almost the only factor is their shared Jewishness. So what is Atzmon getting at?”

    Care to address Andy’s point ftp? You’re the one giving a platform to and defending this material so perhaps you should start answering some questions.

  36. Goodwin,
    what is it you need, I mean, what’s your type, A, AB, O? Positive or Negative?

    Perhaps I made a mistake to not spend hours and hours on a site to make a pondered and dramatic decision before I decided to express a view. In principle I am AGAINST harassment, and this is what I defended, people using the key words to harass and censor. Next time, I will get the POLICE on the case first so you can save me the time and pick out all the articles you want. Are you satisfied now? NO! of course not, cuz you’re a Zionist and you are obsessed with Anti-Semitism, real or presumed. Apart the fact that I don’t trust obsessive compulsive people and I think you certainly qualify. Nothing will shut you up except for “complete capitulation” and VICTORY!! I concede you a partial victory. I didn’t see the whole site, what I saw was good. I judged on what I saw. It was obviously not what YOU go to seek out because you use a “Jew-meter” (now you will call this racist, as if Jew is a bad word?) I personally don’t seek out the Jew articles, I haven’t got the time like you seem to.

    Hey, you want me to denounce a site I came into contact with a few weeks ago? The site owner was directed to me by someone who told me that the site was receiving heavy threats from someone like (probably) Goodman. The webmaster, who is not even the author of the piece wrote me telling me they were a site that was anti-Zionist and defended Palestinian rights. I am not anyone’s judge, just like no one is mine, but I went in, the home page looked ok, I clicked on the articles that interested me, and I found them of value. What more can I say.

    In fact, now you can dance around claiming victory because I tell you I didn’t read the whole site and my views were expressed on the articles that are relevant to Zionism and Israel, which is what I am interested in. If there are things that are questionable, I regret that I defended a site I do not know like the pockets of my jeans, knowing that anything and everything will be used by those trying to attack me who have nothing to do all day but plug my name in on Google. It is tiring being stalked guys, you can stop now, unless you think this is political activism. I think it is sick in the head and deranged. I however am not going to grovel for you, and I’m not going to denounce any sites, not even this “sewer”!!! Let it be! I mean, what the hell, we are in a free world where people can write what they want and others comment as they feel. Or aren’t we?

  37. joepolitix, does the text actually refer to “Jewish victims of the Holocaust”? Did not quite a few Jews emigrate to Israel after the war? Perhaps the term “grandparents” is there for a reason. Do you think the birth of Israel was unconnected to the holocaust? I don’t.

    I happen to think you’ll find theres much more discussion of Atzmon on Socialist Unity than there has ever been on Indymedia, and I think it is incumbent on those who make claims about the text to back it up.

    Andy asked the question in a response to someone else btw….

  38. Ok, I will lend my hand to you:

    “sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in the Middle East as their grandparents were in Europe just six decades ago. Seemingly, it is the personification of WW2 and the Holocaust that blinded the Israelis and their supporters from internalising the real meaning of the conditions and the events that led towards their destruction in the first place.”

    Jews were unpopular: this is a fact. They did not seem to know it, perhaps, because many were highly successful and powerful, so they did not notice that their actions were having consequences on a mass of people who were “classified by others” and often themselves, as part of the same group. Whether or not this would have changed their fate is a matter of phantapolitics. Now, some will say, “pogroms”, etc. Pograms affected the poor guy, not the one who was doing well in the city. But, actually, the fact (fact) that many Jews (as a whole) were indeed unpopular for reasons that to these particular individuals were normal situations (ie. landlords, moneylenders, businessmen without scruples who would finance any political party at all just to fill their own pockets) had at some level “normalised” the resentment and the “ignoring the resentment” at a widespread level.

    Now, today, Israelis are vastly viewed negatively by many. fact.

    They however, tend to ignore the reasons that they are viewed negatively. It has nothing to do with being Jewish, but with facts that are “normalisation”, they occupy Palestinian land and use a military and economic domination that they find acceptable, but the others do not. They actually DO influence the way anything is done in the world by the positions they hold in the media, finance and politics, and anyone criticising them is silenced as Anti-Semites. Anyone who looks at statistics and makes objective observations of the over-representativeness of Jews in the US Media and Politics and of their Christian Zionist and Neocon counterparts who support Israel as a Jewish State and will go against national interests for it, is called lunatic racist.

    It is obvious in this case that the Israelis and Israeli supporters, (the Sons of Israel) are oblivious to the way they are viewed.

    the meaning of the holocaust in THIS sense is: there should not be a repetition of the mass destruction of a people because there are individuals and in many cases, a majority, that persists in a status quo that makes life difficult or impossible for others. If Israel would realise that they have to look at themselves as others see them, they may be able to change and avoid a future mass catastrophe befalling their people.

    I don’t think it is that complicated boys.

  39. The above post by ‘the nutter’ says it all!

    Its the politics of blaming the victims of anti-semitism for anti-semitism in early twentieth century Europe!

  40. Blimey, the anti-Semites show their cards.

    Mary “Gertrud Scholtz-Klink” Rizzo argues as explanation of the nazi holocaust:

    “Jews were unpopular: this is a fact. They did not seem to know it, perhaps, because many were highly successful and powerful, so they did not notice that their actions were having consequences on a mass of people. But, actually, the fact (fact) that many Jews (as a whole) were indeed unpopular for reasons that to these particular individuals were normal situations (ie. landlords, moneylenders, businessmen without scruples who would finance any political party at all just to fill their own pockets) had at some level “normalised” the resentment and the “ignoring the resentment” at a widespread level. ”

    Straight from the pages of Der Stuermer or Der Beobachter.

    In Rizzi’s world the holocaust was because Jews were “landlords, moneylenders, businessmen without scruples” who “did not notice that their actions were having consequences on a mass of people”.

    Die Fuehrerin Rizzi argues that there must be no repetition, and the common factor is that Jews make life difficult or impossible for others. Let is be clear what rizzi is saying here, the nazi holocaust is becasue Jews made life difficult for non-Jews, and didn’t realise how unpopular they were making themselves.

    This quite apart from her anti-Semitic concern about the “over-representation” of Jews, etc.

  41. goodwin sands on said:

    38 @ ‘Perhaps I made a mistake to not spend hours and hours on a site to make a pondered and dramatic decision before I decided to express a view.’

    It took myself and others less than five minutes to see that RadicalPress was a Holocaust-denial-friendly site. It apparently took the same amount of time for you to convince yourself that it could not possibly be racist – ‘It is absolutely NOT anti-Semitic, but many who might not agree with its harsh critique on Israel might try to label it as such’ were your words. Note the ‘absolutely’.

    ‘I am not anyone’s judge, just like no one is mine’

    Ah. Here is a novel way to keep anti-semitism out of the left: simply pretend it isn’t there, ignore it, be ‘non-judgmental’. Splendid. It’s a good way to get your name up endorsing Holocaust denial sites.

  42. obviously, you are not willing to look into reasons behind why Hitler was capable of gaining the approval or at least the silence of many people. It by no means JUSTIFIES; but it lends an interpretation into the blindness that is happening in Israel as an analogy. You can warp your interpretation all you want, this is the reading of the text as I see it. If you say that means, Jews were responsile for all evil that befell them, well, you better go to night school and catch up on reading comprehension, because it is neither in the original nor in my interpetation of it.

    Why is it you can’t seem to realise that the Israelis claim the world hates them and wants them to be killed? I am not saying it is a projection, but I am saying that by doing this, the Israelis are able to get away with anything, and blame the complaints that surface to “irrational anti-semitic hatred” without even looking or reflecting on anything. You are now going to deny that there were people in Europe who were exploited by certain powerful Jewish individuals???? And that none of them dabbled in Fascism and Nazism or in investment in military enterprises that affected poor people, including other Jews??

    It is the Israelis in the first place who would seem to not find so much scandalous in what Gilad has written, as they do live in a barricade mentality where they do not really care what others think about them. What did Ben Gurion say, “It is not important what Gentiles think, what matters is what we (Jews) do”. A complete detachment and alienation from the views of others who are in some way affected by the actions. In this case, the actions of the few (Israelis, and they will say, OH, only our leaders) while the vast majority supports Israel even knowing this brings about resentment.

    I actually believe Gilad asks Israelis to look at themselves and change before they head for a tragedy. He obviously cares, since this is the land he was born and raised in and where many of his loved ones live.

    No one can stop events or direct history from happening, but one can avoid errors that in the past brought about suffering, and lack of self-reflection and disinterest in “the Gentile world” seem to be something that Israel suffers from.

  43. So let’s state some clear socialist politics on all this:

    1) Socialists are the enemies of all forms of racism:

    Whether that be the a) racism of Europeans towards the Jewish people that lead to the holocaust; Or b) the racism of the state of Israel towards the Palestinians that has lead to ethnic cleansing and an apartheid state of occupation.

    2) The United States ruling class supports Israel not because of some ‘Jewish Lobby’ or a bizarre worldwide conspiracy of Jewish people. The USA supports Israel because it is in the interests of US imperialism to do so. That is why anti-Semitic WASP politicians support Israel as a strategic asset in the Middle East.

    Israel is the pawn of the USA – not the other way round.

    Atzmon – and others are plain wrong to claim that Israel has somehow hijacked the USA. This is the political poison of the crazy white supremacist survivalist types that is seeping through the conspiracy nutcases of the 9/11 truth cults.

    Genuine opponents of imperialism and capitalism, and genuine supporters of the Palestinian cause need to expose these dangerous errors.

    Full stop.

    I dont think we need continue this debate with the unpleasant advocates of the ‘socialism of fools’.

  44. ftp at #39 is a nasty Jew-hater on the run.

    Asked to explain the following from Atzmon

    “sons of Israel are at least as unpopular in the Middle East as their grandparents were in Europe just six decades ago. Seemingly, it is the personification of WW2 and the Holocaust that blinded the Israelis and their supporters from internalising the real meaning of the conditions and the events that led towards their destruction in the first place”

    ftp replies: “does the text actually refer to “Jewish victims of the Holocaust”? Did not quite a few Jews emigrate to Israel after the war? Perhaps the term “grandparents” is there for a reason. Do you think the birth of Israel was unconnected to the holocaust? I don’t.”

    How disingenuous. It was not the first sentance that needed explaining it was the second.

    Fortuntately, ftp’s political ally Rizzi helped him out, and explained that in her view the holocaust was because Jews are selfish greedy people.

    It amazes me that the other Indymedia Moderators can sit in the same room as a pro-fascist shit like you, ftp

  45. andy, you know if you read, you will see YOU are doing the generalisation, and calling me German names is a stupid little game. We can leave the playground now.

    Address the issues with a bit of dignity and scholarship if you can attempt that.

    You are saying that NO conditions existed where the poor would feel exploited? Come on! Well maybe your textbooks are super kosher, but here in continental europe, the story was different.

    Want to know a good one? My own Grandma’s family (Jewish) were tenants by landlords who exploited them, knowing they could not pay with the work they had, he forced the girls to be servants (slaves) here, there and there in the homes of wealthy Jews, so that they would not need to pay interest on late rent.

    This is Rich exploiting Poor, and it doesn’t matter if it was Jew or Gentile, but if you do some research you may learn that most of the landlords in cities were Jewish.

  46. #44 Rizzi.

    I am not interested in the relatively uncontroversial part of your argument – that the current policies of the israelis lead Israel to be hated, though in your particular spin on it there is a slight whiff of Zyklon.

    I am looking at your explanation of the holocaust, which while you say that it was unjustied, you still argue that it was essentially a response to the greedy and selfish behaviour of the Jews. i.e. that it was the Jews fault?

  47. ‘thecutter’ wrote: “but if you do some research you may learn that most of the landlords in cities were Jewish…”

    Is ‘thecutter’ a member of the BNP? I’m assuming a Strasserite faction given it’s concern for “rich exploiting poor”.

  48. goodwin sands on said:

    46 @ ‘It amazes me that the other Indymedia Moderators can sit in the same room as a pro-fascist shit like you, ftp’

    Careful Andy, or he’ll go back to his ‘where is it written that six million Jews died’.

  49. I am closing this thread now, I cannot see any point in continuing it.

    The anti-Semites have thoroughly exposed themselves for all the world to see.

  50. Tony Greensten on said:

    ‘FTP says that anyone can make a mistake. Of course they can and if it were simply a question of a mistake then I would be the last person to haul them over the coals for it. But Mary Rizzo hasn’t made a simple mistake over a particular web site. She is categorical. ‘It is absolutely NOT anti-Semitic.’ You can’t be more definite than that. It took me 5 minutes on entering the site to see what it was about. Mary Rizzo has spent so much time condoning racism and anti-Semitism that she has long since lost her bearings.

    Articles by Atzmon on her site attributing the Peter Hain scandal to Jewish and Israel lobby funding when much of the money had nothing to do with either (e.g. the GMB union’s £20,000).

    Amateur Anthropologist says ‘I cannot see how what Atzmon is quoted as saying can be viewed as condoning or supporting the holocaust’. But it’s very simple. Atzmon compares the undoubted unpopularity of Israel, for what it does to the Palestinians with what the Jews of Europe experienced. If he really doesn’t get it then he has lost all critical faculties. This is blaming the victim for their own persecution. Were the Armenians or Tsutsis to blame for their genocides? Or the Cambodians? Anti-racists usually blame the racists not the victims. If the victims are ‘unpopular’ with their persecutors that is not the cause of the persecution but a consequently of the racists’ own warped ideology. Or were the gays and gypsies also to blame for their own popularity? Actually this passage of Atzmon shows not only how warped his thinking on the holocaust is but how very little he actually knows about it anyway.

    The Nazis played down their anti-Semitism in the 3 years prior to their accession to power. They had to work very hard at trying to convince Germans that the Jews were all they made them out to be. The working class had remained immune up to and beyond 1933 knowing full well that anti-Semitism was a weapon to divide them and to present a false anti-capitalism.

    ftp can’t see how he justifies the holocaust. Very simple. He attributes what happened in the holocaust to the Jews’ unpopularity. AND he goes on to say that it is a lesson that should be learned, in other words Israelis should learn not to be unpopular or they might bring a holocaust on themselves. The meaning could not be clearer and anyone with a couple of brain cells could see it quite easily.

    Incidentally Andy it’s not just my interpretation. Moshe Machover, an Israeli Zionist widely admired and the founder of Matzpen first drew my attention to it.

    Mikey wriggles and squirms to avoid the implications of his own comments, or rather the tries to divert peoples’ attention. He makes no attempt to justify the comments that I quoted:

    <

    p>‘Mikey, can you provide us with the criminal record of this Bugger-Rance. Is he on spent conviction like greenie l or is he just an ordinary liar?
    Gilad Atzmon | 03.12.07 – 8:00 pm | #

    I have been very busy digging up stuff on Tony Greenstein – Roland Rance will have to wait for another day.
    Mikey | 03.12.07 – 8:53 pm | #

    ‘Mikey, I hope you do not mind me saying that, but your contribution for the pls solidarity movement is priceless. It is crucial that we all know about the racist record of this Greenpiss, a man who was banned time after time for being a racist and an anti Semite!
    I really want to believe that this revolting violent man will feel some shame and take some time off to think about it all. But I doubt it.’
    Gilad Atzmon | 03.04.07 – 10:46 am | #
    http://www.haloscan.com/comments/thecutter/117192641046077827/

    Mikey, can you provide us with the criminal record of this Bugger-Rance. Is he on spent conviction like greenie l or is he just an ordinary liar?

    Gilad Atzmon | 03.12.07 – 8:00 pm | #

    and if anyone doubts the meaning of the above, there is more:

    Atzmon: Again, again, I believe that Zionists like you can cope with philosophical thinking because Zionism is a Jewish ideological stand. RK, Ben Gurion and later Begin and Shmuel Tamir were operating within different interpretation of the very the same ideology. The political and legal aspects are nothing but a cover up of the real meaning of this saga.

    You can cope with it, Greenie and Brenner can’t.

    However, Good luck with Greenie and thanks for all the info you gave us about this low being.
    Peace is the way forward
    G
    Gilad Atzmon | 03.08.07 – 4:02 pm |

    Note that – ‘thanks for all the info you gave us.’ Now there was no denial or comment to the effect of ‘‘what are you talking about Atzmon?’ Because of course it was true.

    So Mikey blusters. Greenstein is for destroying the Israeli State. Atzmon is for attacking synagogues. He finds it difficult (though not too difficult to act as Atzmon’s little informer!).

    But of course this is pure sophistry. I am in favour of dismantling the Israeli state, de-Zionising it, along the lines of dismantling or destroying the apartheid state. Note state. I am not in favour of destroying the people in Israel, Jewish or non-Jewish. Unlike fascists or Zionists I make a sharp distinction between the people who live in a state and the state itself. That is a fairly common Marxist understanding since the state is a body of armed men (& a few women!). True I don’t consider Hamas or Hizbollah anti-Semitic but as reflectors of anti-Semitism. I have many criticisms of them but not the ones that Zionists have. If Mikey lived in Gaza and was a Palestinian and a bulldozer knocked down his home, his kids were shot at and maybe killed, he was humiliated in front of them, all in the name of ‘the Jews’ or ‘the Jewish state’ I suspect he would say he hated all Jews. That is not anti-Semitism.

    Mikey says he likes meeting ‘extremists’. He even attended a JAZ meeting or two. But we didn’t go for a drink after did we? In fact you scarpered off pretty quickly! Nor did you ask if I’d like you to do some research on Atzmon and his failure to pay for music he’d borrowed from a Palestinian he worked with. I’d be quite happy if you would but the truth is that anti-Zionism is your enemy, not anti-Semitism.

    And of course Rizzo, fresh from defending The Radical Press (I notice they’ve been removed, link and all, from her petition and site), as has her link to David Duke!) proclaims:

    ‘Now, “my anti-Semitism”. No one has ever ever ever been able to find a single thing I have written that is Anti-Semitic, on thousands of forums posts or anywhere else. Nor any posts that I have put into the blog as Anti-Semitic, not counting Tony stating they are and not being able to back it up. But, he keeps up with the character assassination. The man is ill.’

    No I’ve never felt better. In perfectly rude good health. It’s true that I have devoted little time to Rizzo’s own vacuous outpourings but that is because I prefer to search a light on the organ grinder rather than the monkey. But Rizzo has defended Shamir in the past, defends Eisen, gets Atzmon to write every other article on her blog these days, Blankfort likewise and of course she fully subscribes to the ‘Jewish Power’ thesis. Sorry Mary, you’ll have to do harder to convince me!

    In an effort to divert attention from her own support of holocaust deniers and anti-Semitism says that I point people to holocaust denial sites. I very rarely do so but when these sites, which host so often the work of those Rizzo admires, state openly that Zundel’s lawyer, Stolz, relied on a deposition citing what Atzmon had said to a German audience then it is quite valid to quote them. Historians also quote Eichmann’s interview printed in Life Magazine in 1960 as well as many Nazi archival sources (Atzmon and Eisen are unaware that the Nazis left copious amounts of documents about testifying to their murderous deeds). It is nonsense to say one doesn’t quote Nazis against other racists or Nazis. I quote for example Rudolph Hoess, Commandant of Auschwitz, to prove that murder by gas did indeed occur. Is this wrong? No. What she should be asking is why neo-Nazi sites quote Atzmon so happily.

    To Goodwin and Andy who make a distinction between justifying something and saying it is the Jews’ fault, my reply is that of Oscar Wilde. It is a distinction without a difference.

    Mary Rizzo attempts to explain away things. ‘Jews were unpopular: this is a fact.. But this is not a fact. She goes on to put her foot in it. ‘But, actually, the fact (fact) that many Jews (as a whole) were indeed unpopular for reasons that to these particular individuals were normal situations (ie. landlords, moneylenders, businessmen without scruples who would finance any political party at all just to fill their own pockets) had at some level “normalised” the resentment and the “ignoring the resentment” at a widespread level.’ I can only suggest Rizzo reads Abram Leon’s ‘Jewish Question – A Marxist Interpretaton’. The so-called unpopularity, in fact scapegoatism of the Right, occurred when these Jewish roles were changing and Jews were being pauperised. Jews in Eastern Europe were overwhelmingly poor and the Nazis when they invaded Galilicia and other parts were amazed to discover Jewish farmers.

    However I believe in educating people. So let us see what the Operations Situation Report of Einsatzgruppen A (a killing commando – one of 4 – which operated in the Baltic states) of 7.10.41. said:’Surprisingly it was not easy at first to set in motion a pogrom against the Jews on a large scale.’ This refers to Kovno in Lithuania. It goes on to say that ‘It proved much more difficult to set in motion similar mopping up operations and pogroms in Latvia.’ p.93 Lucy Dawidowicz. ‘A Holocaust Reader’ If you read Ian Kershaw’s Hitler Myth you will see that the overwhelming majority of Germans, including some in the Nazi party itself, felt revulsion at what happened on Kristal Nacht. This myth of ‘unpopularity’ is just that. A convenient excuse. Of course Atzmon and Eisen are ignoramuses. They’ve read nothing. If they were even to read that one document, which lists some 121,000 murdered, 118 000 Jews and 3,000 communists, they would realise that this ‘the Nazis didn’t intend to do it they were overcome with the plague’ nonsense was just that. Fatuous nonsense.

    And let me make the point again, as Rizzo has difficulty in understand things first time around. It was precisely when the Jews WEREN’T following their traditional occupations, when they were in Marx’s words filling the interstices, the holes in society economically, that anti-Semitism reared its head and became powerful. When they were tax stewards etc. they were protected by the nobles and bishops.

    But Rizzo has never heard of the saying, ‘when in a hole stop digging.’ She goes on to say that ‘obviously, you are not willing to look into reasons behind why Hitler was capable of gaining the approval or at least the silence of many people. It by no means JUSTIFIES; but it lends an interpretation into the blindness that is happening in Israel as an analogy.’ But it wasn’t that Hitler gained such approval that led to his success. In fact at the November 1932 election, there was a drop of 2 million votes for the Nazis since the July 1932 election. It was the panic of the conservative Junker class and their representatives, Pappen, Hindenberg et al. that led them to put Hitler in power. It had nothing whatsoever to do with the Jews’ ‘unpopularity’. It was anti-communism not anti-Semitism that led to the rise of Hitler. Anti-Semitism served a very different function but Rizzo is so ignorant she understands nothing of this.

    And what a choice quote by ftp. Precious really:

    ‘Anti-zionists have hardly left zionism behind, have they? They are defined by it.’ Yes it’s called a negation or dialectical relationship! Of course we are defined by it, we oppose it. Just as anti-capitalists are defined by the capitalist system they live in! Silly boy. Of course we have left it behind, unless you subscribe to the Atzmon notion that being Jewish is to be Zionist (see ‘not in my name’ on his site).

    Tony Greenstein

  51. Just to let folks and Tony know,
    that the Cork database, used to peddle Blankfort-Rizzo-Atzmon propaganda has posted the follwing item –
    Fact checking on Greenstein, Mission: impossible
    PIWP

    Conveniently, the item accessing a page on an Arab webiste rather than on Rizzo’s own racist blog – obviously, over striving for some kind of spurious ‘Arab’ imprimatur for their racist guff.

    The commentary box (a feature which neutralises much of the supposed neutrality of the PIWP comtent, as far as I can see) describes nonsense spewed by Tony, in regards to his efforts to ensure that the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign in the UK isn’t used as a front by anti-semites to peddle their racist rubbish.

    I myself have been present on a comments thread at the neo-nazi sewer of Peace Palestine blog when Atzmon (I presume) described ‘Marxist Rabbis’ out to try and ‘judify the PSC’, amongst other racist jibes – utterly disgusting!

    Great stuff Tony – all the best mate!

  52. angel on said:

    Mad Mikey Ezra is an ugly old dude. His oily, smarmy manner tries to hide the fact that he’s fanatically anti-Palestinian, therefore a racist; he was thrown off the “elite” social networking site aSmallWorld because of his ranting bigotry; he tries to delude people that he’s a highly-qualified, academic moderate who only wants peace. Conclusion: he’s a very unpleasant character, a self-serving, cowardly hypocrite who doesn’t have the courage of his convictions.