Strange Bedfellows

demoThe Zionist Federation of Britain and Ireland are planning a demonstration tonight.

They will be meeting at the Israeli embassy (2 Palace Green, London, W8 4QB) Green, London, W8 4QB) at 19.00 on Wednesday 2nd June.

This is clearly a provocation, and is best ignored.

However, what is interesting is that the English Defence League (EDL), the far-right group which has brought hooligan gangs onto the streets for inflamatory Islamophobic marches, has announced that it is backing the Zionist demonstration; and their support has been welcomed by the Zionists. [UPDATE: the Zionist Federation deny that they have welcomed the EDL support – see comments in the thread below]

Recently in Dudley, two EDL members protested against a proposed mosque in the town with a rooftop protest, where as evidence of their patriotism and love of England they flew the Israeli flag!

The EDL are clearly seeking to gingerly expand the political horizons of their supporters, not only with explicit support for Israel, but also by their website describing their political opponents as “commies”.

The EDL remain a potentially very serious political threat, especially as they are regularly managing to mobilise significant numbers of hard cases onto the streets. But part of their danger has been that their emphasis on Islamophobia has been running with the grain of widespread mainstream opinion, and in the context of the Afghan war they have provided an avenue for an unstable cocktail of emotions to express itself.

News imageIdentification with Israel, at the time when that is clearly against mainstream political opinion (see the highly critical artices against Israel in the Daily Mail and Telegraph), is potentially damaging for the EDL, and perhaps hints that they may be overreaching themselves. The EDL are of course also strange bedfellows for the Zionist Federation, and whereas supporters of Israel would previously have looked to a Conservative Prime Minister for support, they now have to make do with some boneheads who meet in a pub skittle alley in Peterborough.

160 comments on “Strange Bedfellows

  1. swoppie on said:

    They did a rooftop protest in Dudley. Did they do another one in Aylesbury or have you got your towns mixed up?

  2. ahh, but elsewhere on their website they refer to the “Dudley two”, and say the prtest was there. So you are right.

    However the original reference to the protest being in Aylesbury was from the EDL website. bizarre.

  3. Dave Rich on said:

    Where have the Zionist Federation welcomed the EDL’s support? I simply don’t believe that is the case.

  4. Clayton on said:

    Just shows the desperation of the Zionist Federation of Britain and Ireland, they are usally quick off the mark to accuse any critisism of Israel as anti-semetic, having to welcome the support of the EDL, who have neo-nazi followers in its ranks as well as the usual football hooligans and islamaphobes is a stange coalition indeed.

  5. Not so strange really. Zionism has previous form when it comes to reaching accomodation with fascists. If this report is correct however it does indeed represent an act of desperation by the Zionist Federation. Interesting…

  6. Dave Rich on said:

    Do you believe everything the EDL says? Or is it just that you are willing to believe anything that is said about Zionists?

  7. The EDL have said their support has been welcomed. So far that is the only information in the public domain.

    If the Zionist Federation want to distance themselves from the EDL, then they can rebut what the EDL have said.

    Until then the information is uncontradicted,

  8. Zionists have long courted and embraced the support of Christian fundamentalists who believe that all Jews will either convert to Christianity or be destroyed in the Apocalypse, so why would they be squeamish about about associating with fascist street thugs? They might get all misty-eyed for the days of Jabotinsky and Irgun.

    Interesting, too, that the image included in this post has nothing concerning what the protest is actually about. What could they possibly be protesting? Israel killed a bunch of unarmed – sorry, bottle and deckchair-wielding – civilians, committed an act of war against a NATO member and is going to get off scot free.

    Seriously, what is there to protest?

  9. Marko on said:

    You would think after this incident, that at the very very best and viewed from a pro Israeli stance is a total calamity, would force pro Israeli’s to come out on the street demanding the resignation of the Israeli givernment. But no they are coming out in support! What fools! What proof of their moral and intellectual bankruptcy!

  10. #12: “don’t laugh. the Zionist Federation are demonstarting against media bias”

    Absurd as it seems, I suppose that it all contributes to the narrative of “poor little Israel”. The victim mentality, and the parallel sense of absolute entitlement, are so deeply embedded in the zionist psyche that nothing in the real world seems to impinge on it. I suppose the BBC will pounce on this as proof that their coverage must be unbiased, since both sides are protesting about it. Sickening.

  11. Blarney Stone on said:

    Strange Bedfellows? Not that strange. A real coalition of the losers and Islamaphobes. They just need to recruit the AWL and there’d be a real triumvirate of bat shit crazy outfits. The EDL are showing that they have nothing to offer but bullying and thuggery and there is a very limited growth rate for that. No doubt they’ll take any sponsorship money Zionism is offering before rediscovering that `it’s the economy stupid’.

  12. Jonny Mac on said:

    Oh come come Bennett.

    Surely you have knocked around SU long enough to learn the rules. Once more, since you’re slow:

    1. It is impossible for Jewish people to be victims; they are always oppressors.

    2. A demonstration by Jewish people, or supporters of Israel, is always a ‘provocation’. Demonstrations by supporters of Hamas and Hizbollah cannot be that, whatever anti-Jewish filth is chanted.

    Ok?

  13. #18, you’re a lying sack of shit, I’m sure Andy can point to innumerable articles he’s written about anti Semitism on SU.

  14. #16
    Sadly no, I cannot stop it.

    This has been a pattern of attack on this site for a long time, the posting puerile sexual anti-Semitic comments, which abuse by name one or two well known Jewish opponnets of Israel; recently they have started signing them using the names of other regular contributors here.

    It is done from Haifa University in Israel, and obscenely they particularly targetted articles about the recent killings. Complaints have been made to the authorities at Haifa university in the past, who are not interested in solving the problem.

    Because who ever is doing it uses a proxy server to give them a dfferent IP address every time they do it, they cannot be blocked. I delete them as soon as they come through.

    Given the leve of anti-Semitism, and the nasty sexual bullying of their content, it tells you everything you need to know about the moral standing of Haifa university.

  15. Jonny Mac on said:

    #20 Calm down dear. I’m not talking about Andy so much as the commentators. Andy does indeed pay occasional lip service to anti-semitism. Though you can tell he’s not really interested in it; it’s normally presented as a minor problem put against his number one enemy, Islamaphobia.

    And it’s not mentioned when it’s tricky, of course. For example, he will be aware of the video of anti-Jewish chanting by people on board the boarded boat. It would have been nice to see some criticism of it among the 500 articles over the last two days on the incident. Equally I don’t remember censure of those who criticise Israel and Israelis in terms such as ‘bestial’ which I’ve seen on here.

    Describe an Islamist suicide bomber who killed 5 times as many as the Israeli commandos in such terms on here and you would be hauled up as an Islamphobe, a racist, before you could draw breath.

    I really respect what Andy does here and am sure he doesn’t have an anti-semitic bone in his body; but I do think that, like so many on the left, he is so angered by Israel’s actions that, deep down, he can’t be all that bothered by what he sees as the linked phenomenum of anti-semtism.

  16. #23

    Actually Jonny, I have gone out of my way on the facebook group dedicated to solidarity with the victims of the maasacre to protest at immages equating Israel with the Nazis, and pointed out they are widely regardded as anti-Semitic.

    I don’t think there have been any anti-Semitic comments here is response to the massacre, iotehrwise would have deleted/challenged them.

  17. Tim Vanhoof on said:

    Strange bedfellows? What on earth is strange about one racist organisation supporting another?

  18. Marko on said:

    Andy,

    Jonny Mac is just trying the age old trick of deflecting the issue away from the great crime committed by Israel and onto a phoney one about anti-semitism. I am surprised you let it bother you.

    So I am annoying people at Haifa University, fantastic!

  19. Depressed on said:

    David Toube’s been quiet of late, hasn’t he? I think it’s only fair, given his previous antics, that all comments directed towards him in future contain the phrase “your chums in the EDL”.

  20. Jonny Mac you’re repeating the Zionist trope that tries to paint the Palestinian oppressed as oppressors. I may not agree with Andy on a number of issues but claiming that he a little bit anti-semitic because he reports Israeli atrocities is nonsense.

    It’s like claiming that those opposed to South African apartheid were anti-white.

  21. Jonny Mac on said:

    24 – thanks, that’s great.

    26 – anti-semitism and ‘Israel’s great crime’ are linked, Marko, that’s the point. Have a look at the MPAC website if you don’t believe me. Israel’s grotesque blunder, and its understandable exploitation by the pro-Palestinian left (and far right), make prejudice and violence against Jewish people everywhere even more of a risk than it is normally. It is possible to be against both Israeli crimes AND anti-semitism; you should try it. In fact, that effort is, I’d say, incumbent on every member of the left.

  22. Jonny Mac on said:

    but claiming that he a little bit anti-semitic because he reports Israeli atrocities is nonsense.

    never said that.

    ray misses the point.

    again.

  23. Greg on said:

    Err, isn’t it the Islamists who are fascist, not the EDL? After all, they are the ones that accept no criticism of their Sharia law, and they are the ones that show extreme prejudice to women, gays, children, christians, jews, hindus, Sikhs, Bahais etc. etc.

    When I see the EDL rallies, I see people from all walks of life who just want to sustain free speech and democracy in the UK. What they don’t want is an islamo-fascist ideology that is prejudiced against so many.

  24. Sean on said:

    Certainly not going to defend Zionist Fed

    I dont even know the organidsation

    but at a hightened time

    we do have to be very careful that the Zionist Federation of Britain and Ireland, (did) welcome the support of the EDL

    WE have enought facts about the Federation to know that they are standing by the massacre of protestors

    It could have been anyone of us ???

    I have to say Palestine has never been the top of my “solidarity list” in the battele for our limited time

    however this is issue is now about those involved in “peaceful” “solidarity ” work being slaughtered

  25. Marko on said:

    “It is possible to be against both Israeli crimes AND anti-semitism; you should try it.”

    I will carry on doing what I am doing and completely ignore your advice. OK Jonny Mac.
    So go bullshit someone else.

  26. ger francis on said:

    31 – ‘When I see the EDL rallies, I see people from all walks of life who just want to sustain free speech and democracy in the UK.’

    Funny that, because all I see are a bunch of people united by their hatred of Muslims, and lots more besides. Some of the more gullible fell for the EDL’s ‘free speech’ bullshit the first few times they came Birmingham. Thankfully, they have since been exposed, and that simply won’t wash anymore. There is a very good Guardian report highlighting the EDL as the racist bunch of hooligans that they are. It will haunt them every time they try to spin otherwise.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2010/may/28/english-defence-league-uncovered

  27. Blarney Stone on said:

    The EDL are trying to create the very thing they claim to be against by attempting to intimidate ordinary Muslims in their communities. The EDL are not only happy to see Islamic fundamentalism increase as a result of their filthy booze fuelled riots they are making it as difficult as they can for Muslims to work with the police and vice versa to deal with the fundamentalist problem. The EDL are a bunch of chancers who have spotted an opportunity to gain some political influence through creating a cycle of violence. Let’s face it no fundamentalist terror no EDL: they need each other. They are a mob for hire and will take money from Zionism or elements of the british ruling class that are looking for a showdown with anybody who resists it.

    Would anti-Zionists march through jewish areas as a result of this atrocity against the flotilla or Gaza

    Should we start marching through jewish areas because of the terrorist actions of political Zionism as if Judaism = Zionism just as in the minds of the EDL Muslim = Jihadi? That would be absurd but the EDL are absurd.

  28. Marko on said:

    “Would anti-Zionists march through jewish areas as a result of this atrocity against the flotilla or Gaza”

    Not in a million years. Not one.

  29. Jonny Mac on said:

    #33 I will carry on doing what I am doing and completely ignore your advice.

    Fair enough. No-one can force you to be opposed to anti-semitism.

  30. Marko on said:

    “Fair enough. No-one can force you to be opposed to anti-semitism.”

    That’s good to hear.

  31. Greg on said:

    Interesting clip from the guardian, I’ve also been sent some clips of gangs of UAF thugs attacking police with weapons. I didn’t see the EDL attack anyone in that clip.

    What is your stance on the treatment of women under islam then? I’m pro women’s rights, and Sharia law doesn’t sit right with me.

    Also, shouldn’t everyone be free to be an athiest, or follow whichever religion they please? Shouldn’t people be free to change their religion if they please?

    I find this whole thing very confusing, and an absolute hornets nest.

  32. Blarney Stone on said:

    #40 `I find this whole thing very confusing, and an absolute hornets nest.’

    Best not to get involved then Greg. You could so easily end up getting used if you are not clear in your own mind or haven’t thought the thing through properly from every angle.

  33. #23 “Andy does indeed pay occasional lip service to anti-semitism.

    he can’t be all that bothered by what he sees as the linked phenomenum of anti-semtism.”

    #30 “but claiming that he a little bit anti-semitic because he reports Israeli atrocities is nonsense.

    never said that.

    ray misses the point.

    again.”

    Wow, in the space of 29 minutes your selective memory takes over again. Zionist apologists are reduced to making false accusations of anti-semitism because the whole edifice of their politics has been conclusively exposed as virulent racism.

  34. “I find this whole thing very confusing, and an absolute hornets nest.”

    Watch the BBC investigation into the EDL. That’ll clear it up for you. Just look at the composition of the EDL for an insight into their position on womens rights.

  35. Jonny Mac on said:

    Oh ffs. Ray, I never said Andy was anti-semitic. In neither of the lines you quote do I say he is ant-semitic. Do I? Indeed, I said “I am sure he doesn’t have an anti-semitic bone in his body.”

    So I never made any accusation of anti-semitism.

    That was kinda my whole point. Andy, who is clearly a decent bloke and not an anti-semite, not seeming interested in anti-semitism; and why that might be.

    Clearly a bit subtle for you and your knee jerk prejudices.

  36. unseen on said:

    How big is the Zionist Federation? Is it possible that they don’t even know that the EDL are claiming to be involved?

    Andy, did you call them for comment?

  37. Blarney Stone on said:

    Jonny Mac: what are you, twelve or something? So Andy’s not an anti-semite he just `pays lip service to it’ and we are supposed to think you are somehow subtle? Why don’t you take your stinking contempt for the dead and piss off somewhere else? Take it over to Dave Osler’s or Shiraz. They’ve got all the time in the world for zionist apologists and other assorted wankers.

  38. Marco on said:

    Ray,

    This Jonny Mac character said I didn’t oppose anti semitism without even knowing anything about me. He is trying to divert talk away from the crimes of Israel, it is a longstanding tactic. We shouldn’t be bothered by the accusation in the slightest. If opposition to Israel is defined as anti semitism by Jonny Mac then he can consider me a card carrying anti semite.

  39. Stockwell Pete on said:

    #40 “What is your stance on the treatment of women under islam then? I’m pro women’s rights, and Sharia law doesn’t sit right with me.”

    Well, no Greg, sharia law doesn’t sit right with me either, as it happens. But the EDL are cynically exaggerating this issue for their own agenda. And btw, the idea that they might be “pro-woman’s rights” is quite bizarre too, if that’s what you are thinking.

    The situation right now in the UK is that muslims can CHOOSE to go to a sharia court if they want to for civil matters (e.g. divorce). But all criminal offences remain exclusively a matter for the British courts. And that is as it should be.

    No-one on the left that I know is arguing for an extension of the juridiction of sharia courts. It is also the case that most muslim people also do not wish to see any such extension, although there are some radical muslims who want to see a caliphate and all the rest of it. The left is opposed to such people – and, as an atheist myself, I would be much happier if no-one wanted to go to a religious court, muslim or jewish or otherwise, but that, unfortunately, is not the current situation in our society right now.

    As for your broader question about women in islamic societies, then the left is in favour of complete equality for women in all aspects of their lives and we are for the complete freedom of religious affiliation for everyone (including people having no such affiliation). What I would say to you though is that when looking at the situation of women in any given society (not just muslim ones) you do need to consider what aspects of their situation are religiously determined and which aspects are culturally determined. One way to get to grips about this is to compare the situations of women from different religious backgrounds who live in the same community, region or nation.

    My own view is that most of the things that people tend to negatively attribute to islamic teachings are, in fact, culturally determined in the first instance – so you have to look at the history and the socio-economic development of a society, much more than you have to look at the religious texts, in order to understand these social phenomenon.

    “Also, shouldn’t everyone be free to be an athiest, or follow whichever religion they please? Shouldn’t people be free to change their religion if they please?”

    Yes, yes and yes. Practically everyone on here would support complete freedom of choice in all these matters, wherever people are living.

    But please realise that the EDL are a racist and islamophobic movement that has very close connections to fascist organisations like the BNP as the Guardian material makes abundantly clear. I would ask you not to march with them or give them your support in any way.

  40. Omar on said:

    Mr. Mac,
    You casually make the same old BS claim that anti-Zionist leftists are anti-Semitic which is rubbish. It is these same leftists who nowadays largely comprise the most active resistance to neo-Nazi/Fascist groups which helps to protect Jews from hate-crimes.
    Adjectives like “bestial” are used to describe crimes perpetrated by Israel because that description is apt( how else to describe shooting innocent civilians, using banned weaponry,etc?).
    Now,YOU may buy ínto the deflection technique of equating criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism but many Jews like Judge Goldstone, Noam Chomsky, Jeffery Blankfort, etc, are amongst the most incisive critics of Israel. Are they anti-Semites?

  41. Blarney Stone on said:

    #48 Quite so Marco. These anti-Zionism = anti-semitism merchants are doing their damnest to completely void the concept of anti-semitism of any meaning whatsoever with their boneheaded, ultra-cynical approach and their endless excusing of straightforward murder.

  42. Greg on said:

    But I do want to get involved, and I appreciate the intelligent debate here. I have no intention of being used by anyone.

    The recent election threw up all sorts of questions for me with regard to who I should vote for. I have never voted before. I mean, can I be anti-Sharia and left wing?

    Sure, I didn’t see any pro-EDL women in the clip from the Guardian, but then the EDL don’t keep refering to a book that deems a women’s worth to be half that of a man. The EDL look like thugs, and I have no intention of joining them (or the UAF thugs for that matter) after seeing the level of hate from both sides.

    Also, why are so many muslims buying Hitlers evil tome ‘Mein Kampf’? You can buy arabic versions of this book in some newsagents in London.

  43. I’m very interested in antisemitism
    which is why I’m keen to stand up for Jewish people everywhere when Israel claims it carries out its racist war crimes and international terrorism on their behalf – even though the vast majority of Jewish People in the world don’t live in Israel, don’t vote in its crummy racist elections and don’t support its ongoing war crimes regime.

    In fact, the majority of zionists in the world aren’t even Jewish.

    The biggest supporters of zionist war crimes in Britian are Scottish presbyterian Gordon Brown and Roman Catholic Tony Blair.

    One of the biggest supporters of zionist war crimes in Amercia is George W. Bush who is an evangelical born again fundamentalist Christian.

    This is the reason racists, such as the EDL, can support zionism because zionism is essentially antisemitic and a blight of Jewish People and Judaism.

    See the effervescent Tony Greenstein’s Blog for more insights

  44. Stockwell Pete on said:

    #52 “I mean, can I be anti-Sharia and left wing?”

    Yes, I am so you can be too. See my reply to you at #49.

    “Also, why are so many muslims buying Hitlers evil tome ‘Mein Kampf’?”

    Well, some radical islamists may be buying this book. I expect some of them are already hardline anti-semites too. Some of these people will also believe that “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” are genuine (they were actually an invention of the Tsarist secret police in Russia before 1917).

  45. chjh on said:

    Like to give some proof for that last allegation, Greg? Names of the newsagents? How you know what the title ‘Mein Kampf’ looks like in Arabic? The number of newsagents in which you personally investigated this claim?

    If it looks like a troll, and walks like a troll…

  46. Stockwell Pete on said:

    #55 I think that we have to debate with people like “Greg”, chjh – and calling them a troll is not very productive, even if it might be true on occasions. Remember, there are lots of people who just read the blog rather than post and that these discussions can help to bring new people towards us.

  47. Stockwell Pete on said:

    #58 Do you know that for sure in this case though, Eddie? If so, how do you know it? Are there no instances at all where people who are trying to get to grips with things post questions on a left-wing blog? And

    Btw, I can’t see any good reason for Joe to suggest that Greg is interested in Nazi trinkets either. Can you?

  48. #59
    Btw, I can’t see any good reason for Joe to suggest that Greg is interested in Nazi trinkets either. Can you?

    – If you want to be stuffy about these things then, just for the record, I didn’t call Mein Kampf a trinket, I caled it Nazi memorabilia.

    Hitler’s outpourings are racist sewage and aren’t fit material for serious political and philosophical debate – much like those who smear Muslims and Islam as somehow having affinities with Nazism.

    What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander – you support the Gregs of this world, and I’ll defend Islam and Muslims against them and their racist sickness.

  49. Stockwell Pete on said:

    #60 You are a bit of a gobshite, aren’t you Joe? I don’t think that you will build very much with that attitude, comrade.

  50. #60 You are a bit of a gobshite, aren’t you Joe?
    – You’re not going to build very much with that attitude are you?

    You defend the Gregs of this world, and I’ll defend their victims.

  51. Jonny Mac on said:

    Oooh you’re a Zionist! Oooh you’re a troll! Ooh fuck off back to Harry’s Place!

    Christ.

    Why does the left attract such utter, utter fuckwits who are so incapable of, scared of, debate?

    If you can’t cope with someone from the mainstream left on SU without throwing your toys out of the pram and screaming, how the fuck d’you think you’re going to cope in the real world?

  52. Omar on said:

    #63
    “Why does the left attract such utter, utter fuckwits who are so incapable of, scared of, debate? ”
    And suggesting that criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic isn’t an attempt to shut down debate?And you still haven’t answered whether you think Goldstone, Chomsky et al are being anti-Semitic with their criticism of Israel.

  53. Marko on said:

    Good points Omar, I personally think the term Islamophobe is over used but I think that is in part a reaction to the constant accusations of anti semitism by the Zionist supporters. Personally this doesn’t bother me at all, as I said earlier if opposition to Israel is defined as anti semitism by Jonny Mac then he can consider me a card carrying anti semite.

  54. #64
    Don’t forget Omar, associating Muslims and Islam with Nazism is also a fit subject for debate too, don’t you know.

    As I’ve just illustrated,
    the real affinity with Nazism lies with Zionism, not Islam, hence the reason the EDL and zionists aren’t such strange bedfellows after all – in fact, these two racist movements (I hate to glorify them with the label ‘ideology’) were born in the same place out of the same material – Europe and its violent racist colonial imperialism.

  55. Omar on said:

    Indeed Joe and Marko, and the connections between Nazism and Zionism go back to the 1930’s as writers like Lenni Brenner have highlighted.
    One almost wonders if the horrid experience of the Holocaust didn’t cause some kind of weird, collective psychosis amongst Zionists where they seek to inflict the same form of racially-based suffering against Palestinians, such has been their savagery toward them over the decades ( and, obviously, increasingly toward non-Palestinians as well).

  56. Marko on said:

    Joe,

    “Don’t forget Omar, associating Muslims and Islam with Nazism is also a fit subject for debate too, don’t you know.”

    And as if by magic along comes anonymous! Are you paying these people or what!

  57. #68
    Omar, it’s interesting you should mention The Holocaust in relation to European immigrant zionist ethnic cleansing of Mandate Palestine of its native people.

    As you know mate, zionists were already well established in Mandate Palestine thanks to help from one of the superpowers of its day, the British Empire, before the Nazis even came to power in Germany never mind what happened to their poor European Jewish victims during World War II.

    Zionist always exploit The Holocaust as an excuse for what they were always going to do anyway to the victims of their European colonial racism in Mandate Palestine.

    #67
    Maybe anonymous #67 can tell us who ethnically cleansed Mandate Palestine of its people in 1948 – European zionists, with the help of the British Empire, or the Nazis?

  58. Greg on said:

    1. I am not a troll, I’m 6ft 1″ and weigh 17st, a little ‘outsize’ for that role IMHO.
    2. I despize Nazism, and any associated trinkets/memorabilia.
    3. Who are my victims??
    4. What is my ‘racist collection’?? My best friend is from Dominica, and my business partner is half Jamaican/half Indian.
    5. The 3 newsagents were in Edgware Road in North London

    I come here to enter intelligent debate with people who are often more politically aware than myself. I am left wing. I am trying to make sense of some issues that concern me.

    I don’t think this site should degenerate into a ‘personal insults’ forum like many right wing sites.

  59. Stockwell Pete on said:

    #71 A-ha. Just as I thought.

    Joe, I hope that you are going to apologise to Greg now. You really should, you know, seeing that you accused him of having “a racist sickness” for no good reason at all at #60.

  60. Greg on said:

    Thanks Pete.

    You cannot expect people like me to understand everything straight away.

    Now I know that some Jewish people have had historical allegiances to Nazis, and some Muslim people now read mein Kampf. The right wing tory leader Cameron is a member of the extreme left UAF, and some of my sikh/rastafarian/Bahai friends are staunchly anti muslim, and they are from ethnic minority groups. The footage of the UAF and EDL have shown me a lot of hate, and I’d certainly avoid both – especially when they meet up. Confusing? You bet.

    I am relatively new to politics, and wish to educate myself. No-one will become politically aware if you just insult them, which seems to be the order of the day on many sites/forums. Please don’t let it happen here.

  61. Stockwell Pete on said:

    #74 That’s fair enough, Greg, and I agree entirely with you about the need to be respectful to people who are seeking information and ideas. It was clear to me that you were doing this and I was horrified to read the subsequent insults that were directed at you. The administrators on here are very good about keeping things under control but obviously they can’t be online 24/7.

    It is very confusing and difficult to understand all the ins and outs of a deep-seated conflict like this that has roots going back for the best part of a century – and then, of course, people who have similar outlooks may still have different interpretations of things and give different emphases, even when they are in the same organisation (the left in the UK is very divided as you probably know).

    Those books are certainly worth a look at for the history of this conflict; I also look at the Al Jazeera and Electronic Intifada websites quite a bit too (just google their names to get them) and then there is the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign website which is also very informative.

    I hope that you will continue to debate here with us.

  62. Greg on said:

    @Eddie – I disagree, Pete has provided me with both some interesting links/info., and some food for thought…

  63. Omar on said:

    “The right wing tory leader Cameron is a member of the extreme left UAF…”

    Pete, HELLO!?

  64. Stockwell Pete on said:

    #79 Omar, HELLO!? I am reading about the Battle of the Bogside. What are you doing?

  65. tony collins on said:

    Pete, Eddie is right. This ticks every single box. The pretend ignorance which is blown apart by cliched BNP rhetoric, the wish to “debate” only it’s always you who has to answer his points. I’m in favour of debating with people who don’t share my politics. I do it all the time at work. But “Greg” is a BNP troll, and a clever one at that. He is deliberately framing UAF as being some kind of mirror of EDL, the language is in fact identical to that on EDL forums; the tick-box of talking about how he has ethnic minority friends who hate Muslims.

    Sorry to say, this is classic baiting. It’s the sort of polished stuff that the better Harry’s Place right-wingers do; it’s the epitome of “concern trolling”, and I’ve been around for enough years to know it by sight. But even if I wasn’t convinced several hours ago, his last few posts make it so obvious, you can’t miss it.

  66. Greg on said:

    @Omar Have I made a mistake here? I thought the UAF was extreme left wing? Cameron is certainly a member, as they were discussing it on BBC Radio 5 live when he was on his campaign trail.

  67. daveyboy on said:

    Re ‘Greg’ tony c writes: “polished stuff”. Laughably transparent, I thought.

  68. Greg on said:

    BNP troll?! I said my friends were anti muslim, I never mentioned any hate. Maybe I should have said ‘anti Islam’. My mistake. When anyone has asked me questions I have gladly answered them. I never said the EDL and UAF mirrored each other, I just said that there was a lot of hate going on in the clips. I am pacifist, so it would seem that neither are for me.

  69. Stockwell Pete on said:

    #81 Oh gawd. Baiting? Concern trolling? Cliched BNP rhetoric? Is there a checklist I can have then so I won’t get duped in future, Tony? Perhaps I should start reading the EDL forums?

    I just don’t know how you can be so sure. People come out with all sorts of outlandish stuff in political discussions, far more outlandish than anything Greg has said, to be honest. It wouldn’t surprise me if Greg has read stuff on right-wing sites – some of his phrases indicate that he might have. But quite frankly, so what? In my view there are a lot of people who are either listening to, or moving towards the EDL right now who we can win to left politics. It was true in the 1970s with the NF and it is just as true now with the BNP/EDL, perhaps even more so now given the ongoing crisis of working class representation.

    So, given that is the situation, my inclination is to debate as widely as possible – and I do actually feel that there is far too much deleting of posts going on on left blogs (this blog is not so bad in this regard) and that we really have to engage with people as much as we can, warts and all (unless someone is being gratuitously racist, sexist, homophobic or whatever – and with due consideration to matters of security etc).

    And even if you are right about Greg (I am not at all convinced that you are), what exactly has Greg gained from this exchange? What would be the point of these exchanges for him. All that has happened is that he has wasted part of his evening talking to an “old codger” like me.

  70. Columbo on said:

    `Why does the left attract such utter, utter fuckwits who are so incapable of, scared of, debate?’

    Who knows? What attracted you?

  71. #77, Pete, the clue is here; “Also, why are so many muslims buying Hitlers evil tome ‘Mein Kampf’?”
    Tony Collins provides a more comprehensive demolition @#81
    “Greg”, here’s challenge, use your mobile phone, digi camera, take a picture of Mein Kapf in Arabic for sale at newsagents in the Edgware Road and post a link to it for us.
    Pete, presuming for a minute ‘Greg’ meets the challenge, why on earth would you take his assertion that it was Muslims that are buying it at face value ?
    For someone who claims to be “confused” ‘Greg’ appears to have extremely detailed knowledge of the purchasing habits of Muslim customers of 3 newsagents on the Edgeware Road.

  72. daveyboy on said:

    Pete – check the comment at 31: “When I see the EDL rallies, I see people from all walks of life who just want to sustain free speech and democracy in the UK.”

    Prejudice masquerading as the voice of reason. It’s the work of a wind-up merchant.

  73. I’m so really naive Pete, can you help me – does the EDL have anything to do with those other guys who used to stick their hands up in the air, the Nazis?

    Except, it’s just that Nazis hated jews not Muslims. How come?

  74. Columbo on said:

    It’s good that neither are for you Greg as I think you are in danger of being manipulated. Though I know that everybody who turns up for the EDL gets a £50 beer allowance I don’t think that is enough to sell your soul.

  75. Omar on said:

    Pete,I’m all for engaging in debate with “confused” folks. By the way, I’ve got some land in Florida you might be interested in… 😉

  76. Columbo on said:

    #91 That should read: it is good that `neither are you for or against’ … because you all give yourself a beer allowance for the day of £50. Holiday!

  77. Greg on said:

    Well said Pete. I don’t want to upset/offend anyone. Yes, I have looked at the right wing perspective, as I’m sure many of you have on occasion.

    To be honest most right wing sites are full of morons (and so are the EDL by the looks). And your right, if I was in the BNP I wouldn’t come here to seek advice/info.

    As I say, I’m left wing and a pacifist.

    How would you feel Eddie if I (wrongly) started ranting about you really being football hooligan because you post pictures up that are taken at Hibernian FC? That would be pre-judging you. Prejudism. Something I appear to have fallen foul of.

  78. #92
    Omar I know a nigerian prince interested in boxing – he needs you to send him your bank details and cell phone number.

  79. Stockwell Pete on said:

    #88 Daveyboy, would you not talk politics with someone who was admitting some interest in the EDL them? Do you automatically regard them as beyond the pale? I draw the line at fascists, I won’t talk to them – but I will pretty much talk to anyone else though, even if I am a bit unsure of their actual politics.

  80. Omar on said:

    #95
    Well Joe I don’t use a mobile so I think that rules me out but I’m sure Pete would be happy to help.

  81. Mikey on said:

    Had Joe Kane actually read Francis R. Nicosia’s book, Zionism and anti-Semitism in Nazi Germany rather than a crass review of it, he would have noted that Nicosia states specifically:

    “lest the reader imagine that the purpose of study such as this to somehow equate Zionism with National Socialism, Zionists with Nazis, or to portray their relationship as a willing and collaborative one between moral and political equals. The research, analysis and conclusions, do not in any way support such notions. The existence of certain common assumptions on the part of Zionists on the one hand, and nationalist and anti-Semitic Germans on the other, does not in any way connote moral and/or political equivalency.” (pp. 2-3)

    “The dominant Zionist approach, like that of most non-Jews at the time, shared a reliance on the idea of an ethno-nationalist state, an idea that was the societal norm in Central Europe in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. Their embrace of that norm does not make the Zionists the moral equivalent of the Nazis. Nor does the willingness of the Zionist or any other Jewish organisation in the Third Reich to cooperate with the state make them willing collaborators in the Nazi destruction of Jewish life in Germany; to suppose that any Jewish organisation in Hitler’s Germany prior to the ‘final solution’ had the option of refusing to work on some level with the state is fantasy.” (p. 3)

    Nicosia also specifically states that it is a-historical and simplistic to “dismiss Zionism as yet another of racism, the substance of which has not been very different from German National Socialism.” (P. 8)

    He adds:

    “Most anti-Semites could never embrace Zionism and its institutions as partners in a common quest because Zionists were, after all, still part of what they believed to be a monolithic world Jewry.” (P. 9)

    “For most anti-Semites in Germany, therefore, including the Nazis prior to 1941, their willingness to use Zionism and the Zionist movement was never based on an acceptance of the Zionist view itself.” (p. 10)

    “the Jewish Agency for Palestine and the Zionist movement in general recognized the critical link between its own survival and the survival and well-being of all Jews in the Diaspora. Even on a practical level, the Zionist view was that if the Nazis succeeded in murdering the great majority of Jews in Europe, a Jewish majority and state in Palestine might never be achieved.” (pp.8-9n15)

  82. Stockwell Pete on said:

    #97 So far all that has been definitely established by you smart arses is that at one point in his life Greg has read the Daily Telegraph – the bastard!! LOL

  83. #90, well there you go Pete, our supposedly naive and confused ‘Greg’ is able to regurgitate a Daily Telegraph story as fact.
    I can’t help but notice that with all the resources of the Daily Telegraph they are also unable to provide any photographic evidence to back up their story, it’s all down to assertion.
    It’s a just a half arsed repetition of the Policy Exchange smear campaign aginst UK Mosques.
    As one half of Islamophobia Watch, I can testify that this kind of completely unsourced anti Muslim rubbish appears in the UK press every day of the week.
    If you want to spend your time engaging with this racist garbage that’s up to you but the reality is that it just adds credibility to the racist narrative of the 21st century.

  84. Omar on said:

    #98
    “Nicosia also specifically states that it is a-historical and simplistic to “dismiss Zionism as yet another of racism, the substance of which has not been very different from German National Socialism.” (P.”

    With no mention or consideration whatsoever of the indigenous Arab population. Not at all racist,then.

  85. Omar on said:

    #99
    “97 So far all that has been definitely established by you smart arses is that at one point in his life Greg has read the Daily Telegraph”

    And that he’s very adept at fishing, particularly when he’s got one of them rare Stockwell Pete’s on the end of his line. 🙂

  86. onlytwoteamsinessex on said:

    Stockwell Pete

    if you’re the same as used to post on KUMB , then you’ve become a less astute than you were back then in being duped.

  87. Stockwell Pete on said:

    #100 Eddie, can you clarify for me? Are you saying that that Mein Kampf has not been translated into Arabic? Are you saying that copies are not sold to Arabic readers in the UK? And are you saying that these shops in the Edgware Road have never stocked the book at all and that the Daily Telegraph story is completely fictitious? Surely the text is still widely available in many different languages?

  88. #104, Pete, I’m sure it has been translated into Arabic, I’ve seen it translated into English and prominently displayed on the shelves of Waterstons in Edinburgh.
    I dunno how many of the people who bought it there are Muslims though.

  89. Stockwell Pete on said:

    #103 Hello mate. Blimey, Greg is a left-wing fanatic compared to some of the people who post on KUMB. Remember zionball? Ha-ha-ha!! And, of course, I debated with right-wing people there because I knew that a lot of other people would read the posts even if they were not participating in the debate themselves. The other thing is, I used to actually know a lot of the people then and drink with them at matches so I knew where they were coming from politically – I have no idea who Greg is and it doesn’t really matter, does it? The administrators might know from the IP addresses but there is no need for them to waste their time checking.

    I am undiminished and unbowed – and I will continue to debate with all and sundry unless I know for sure that someone is a fascist. Btw, what was your name on KUMB then?

  90. Stockwell Pete on said:

    #105 Logically, there will be some though, won’t there? Students may need it for their courses too. I have worked in academic and public libraries and have issued the text to muslim readers. There are absolutely no political conclusions to be drawn from this fact though, in my view.

  91. Anonymous on said:

    104# It is still being published in a number of languages illegally as the State of Bavaria holds the copyrights to the work and forbids its publication. They have succesfully stopped the second Turkish edition for example. I believe it is an illegal Lebanese version which is causing all the trouble. I double up when I read of Arabs buying this book as they are a semetic people and would have been marched into the gas chambers along with the Jews, black, gays, Romany etc.

  92. #104
    Stockwell Pete,
    it’s obvious what Eddie Truman is up to.

    Eddie Truman is trying to muddy the waters when it comes to proving Muslims aren’t really the nazis of today, when they obviously are – as zionists, the EDL and the Daily Torygraph clearly point out.

    Eddie Truman also seems to be trying to imply zionists are racists when clearly, just because zionists are a gang of mad European racist imperialist-colonialist doesn’t mean they’re a mad gang of European racist imperialist-colonialist in the same mould as the Nazis, as Mad Mikey Mike Ezra demonstrates.

    I hope I’ve cleared that up.

  93. Mein Kampf has been translated into Hebrew but I’m sure that was just Islamist fanatics trying to muddy the waters and put people off their scent, the sharia-loving woman-haters that they are.

  94. onlytwoteamsinessex on said:

    Pete, I was your comrade in arms, Westbound.

    But this Greg bloke seems to have all the pseudo-politeness of other fairly articulate BNP types that I’ve come across. Iron Bollox ,as you used to call him, epitomised the nastiness of any Zionists that I’ve ever seen in action.

  95. tony collins on said:

    And even if you are right about Greg (I am not at all convinced that you are), what exactly has Greg gained from this exchange? What would be the point of these exchanges for him. All that has happened is that he has wasted part of his evening talking to an “old codger” like me.

    Hi Pete – the point of this type of trolling is twofold: 1, to divert discussion and to try to establish facts which, by virtue of the style of argument, we all come to “agree on” by default. There are some really sophisticated people who are able to turn anything around with an “I’m glad you agree with me that [x], but [y and z]” stuff.

    2, it’s about getting the message out. This thread is now about a discussion centred on the axiomatic truth that, for example, UAF is an extreme left organisation (he wasn’t arguing it or putting it up for debate – the terms of his debate are extremely narrow, and take these things for given, to be repeated again and again), as well as continually showing that “normal folk” are against Muslims for good reason. This type of stuff appears all over the place, and the reason you’ve taken it seriously is actually cos so much trolling is hideously crass – it’s almost refreshing to see someone who appears to want debate. It’d be like someone actually putting a serious argument in favour of Zionism for a change. But the whole construction of Greg’s points are about getting a message out over “our” heads to a wider audience, to establish some self-evident truths that will speak to people who might not have as much knowledge, and to make us all talk around his framework.

    I can see why this looks like people like me are being sour. So many on the left scream “racist!” when someone expresses a reactionary view. But believe me Pete, I work in a reactionary environment, and I sometimes have to have horrible arguments with people where I have to wade into their turf in order to argue out of it. I’m one of the few people who believes we have to go further in engaging people with reactionary views. So it isn’t me having a knee-jerk reaction to someone with bad politics – it’s a reaction to someone who knows how to play us for fools. If we were to be able to find out who Greg is, I guarantee we’ll find someone who has been politically active for some time, and who really knows his/her stuff. Wouldn’t even be surprised if it was just a Harry’s Place troll playing a game.

  96. Stockwell Pete on said:

    #67 This reference to the Grand Mufti needs to be answered and it seems that it is beyond Joe’s capabilities at the moment. As it so happens Gilbert Achcar has a new book out about “the anti-zionism of fools” . . .

    “For mufti al-Husseini, there was a certain amount of political opportunism and anti-Semitic ideological affinity, which seems evident to me. The mufti did not share the Nazis’ political, social and economic worldview. Those aspects of the Nazi ideology did not interest him. Meanwhile, hatred of the Jews and the British was a common basis for him with the Nazis. He was not a full-fledged Nazi, but a collaborator with the Nazis. He developed hatred toward the Jews that connected with Nazi anti-Semitism. He did not hide it. In his recently published memoirs, he presents a clear anti-Semitic world view.”

    http://socialistworker.org/2010/05/20/arab-attitudes-to-the-holocaust

    and . . .

    “Even before his exile, Husseini had been discredited in the Arab world, if not in Palestine, and his exhortations to join the Axis cause made little impression. According to a U.S. military historian, only 6,300 soldiers from Arab countries passed through German military organizations – 1,300 from Palestine, Syria and Iraq, the rest from North Africa. The British army was able to recruit 9,000 Arab soldiers from Palestine alone while 250,000 North African troops served in the French Army of Liberation and accounted for the majority of its dead and wounded.”

    http://socialistworker.org/2010/05/14/myths-and-the-middle-east

  97. Stockwell Pete on said:

    #111 It’s Colin, isn’t it? Hello mate, it’s great to hear from you again – and I hope that you are well. Yes, Ironbollox, that’s the fella – what a complete and utter lunatic. Ha-ha!! But there were loads of right-wing nutters on there really though, weren’t there? In some ways it was quite a relief to get banned in the end.

    Well, this Greg bloke might be “mugging” me – it wouldn’t be the first time that has happened. Ha-ha! But I can’t see what harm has been done really. He put some statements and questions on (not in a racist way or anything) and I have answered them. Some people are yelling “troll”, or whatever, but no-one is taking me to task for the actual content of my posts so I am not too bothered really. Life was so much more straightforward before the internet, wasn’t it?

    Give my regards to Grant if you are still in contact with him.

  98. Stockwell Pete on said:

    #112 Tony, thanks very much for taking the time to explain all this to me. I appreciate it a lot more than the sarcasm directed at me from what I suspect is the “young turk” tendency on here. In mitigation, I think that I might actually be suffering from the first stages of “future shock” in the sense that I cannot keep up with all the consequences of technological change. A feeble excuse, I know. Ha-ha!

    On specifics, in your second paragraph you talk about trolls wanting to redirect a debate in order to get their message out to a wider audience over our heads. I can understand what you are saying here, but in my earlier posts I also indicated that I was aware of, and focussing on, this wider audience too. And it is because I still have enormous confidence in our politics that I was prepared to engage with Greg and take him at face value (that is, someone who was seeking some answers)After all, he wasn’t being offensive, was he? You see, I don’t actually think that this thread is particularly narrow in its content now at all – and I don’t feel that it has been hi-jacked by Greg either. And maybe it was yet another troll bringing up the issue of the Grand Mufti but I have had a go at answering that as well (and hopefully some comrades will consider buying GA’s book now). Again, because we can answer the zionist slander about the Palestinian national movement then we should do so. Let them troll away is my attitude really, if that is what they are doing – our politics are better than theirs and we can explain the world. Should I not have replied to him at all then, in your view?

    I agree very much with you that we do have to go into our opponent’s half with our arguments at the moment. The left is not in a good place but we need to maintain our self-belief and openness. We cannot afford to curl up into a ball and become what I have already started to characterise as the “self-referencing left” i.e. becoming more inward looking. There are going to be plenty of opportunities to rebuild our movement in the coming period despite all the obvious difficulties we face and what will be really good is when we start to get dozens of new posters asking questions on blogs like these.

  99. chjh on said:

    I agree with a lot of that, Pete, but the fact is that there are Nazi and right-wing trolls who will take advantage of that to hijack the debate.

    One of the ways we tell the difference is that people who are actually new to the movement will ask questions. Greg made assertion after assertion – even if some of those had question marks at the end of them.

    And as tony collins points out, the point of those is to set the terms of debate. So the whole discussion about ‘Mein Kampf’ accepted that ‘Muslims’ were buying the book from ‘newsagents in London’ – implicitly, lots of Muslims and lots of newsagents.

    I can’t help feeling that someone who is genuinely new to things would ask whether we thought there was any truth in the Daily Telegraph report, and would know how right-wing the Telegraph is.

  100. Greg on said:

    I never read the Telegraph, I never even mentioned it! I saw the story featured on a TV programme by Richard Littlejohn, and before anyone jumps down my throat I have no idea about his political allegiance. He may be right wing, I don’t know. He may be left wing. I don’t vet programmes before I watch them.

    The thing that annoys me is that when you post on a right wing forum about our multicultural society (and as I have said before many of my friends are from different cultures), you get abused by EDL types. Many posts that are seemingly from muslims are just as abusive too, ranting about terrorism. Obviously like any forum posts these could be bogus.

    Then when I come here to discuss things that concern me, there is more abuse ‘BNP troll’, ‘racist’, ‘Nazi’ etc. (my wife nearly fell of her chair laughing when I showed her these posts – she’s always accusing me of being too PC and ‘right on’)

    I have only just become politically active (contrary to previous posts by others), and had never voted before.

    Although you people here are more politically active/knowledgable than myself, you have to remember that vast swathes of the UK population just don’t care about politics. They don’t give two hoots.

    I got interested as I now have a young family, and felt I owed it to them to get involved, to vote, and to hopefully make a difference to their future.

    You can see why people aren’t political, if every time you try to enter a reasoned debate people fly off the handle and start insulting each other. If political debate/discussion becomes the domain purely for people who know their politics inside out, then it will exclude myself and many others, and contribute to the general apathy that kicks in on polling day.

  101. Blarney Stone on said:

    #118 Greg: I think you’ve had one or two reasonable responses on this thread that you can mull over if you are interested in doing the right thing. Have a think and a study and get back to us in a couple of months.

  102. Greg on said:

    @Barney – yes, I have received some useful info. here, thanks.

    Surely the attitude should be ‘come and debate/contribute here whenever you like’ not ‘you’ve had one or two reasonable responses…have a think and a study and get back to us in a couple of months’?

    I have tried to be civil and reasonable at all times on this forum.

  103. Andy, I really think you need to amend the post to say “the EDL claim their support has been welcomed by the Zionist Federation”. On what other topic would you accept the EDL’s word as true? Until the ZF say something, surely this remains an unsubstantiated claim. I’m sure the ZF have more pressing things to do right now than monitor the EDL website, or even Socialist Unity blog.

  104. Especially it is not so easy to find where the EDL have made this announcement – it doesn’t seem to be on their website, or am I missing something?

  105. The BBC:
    “Ms Fink also said that she believed that some supporters of the English Defence League were also at the protest.
    Organisers of the pro-Israel protest said they had made it clear that the EDL, who have been accused of Islamophobia, were not welcome but that a separate space had been reserved for them.”http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10222035.stm

    A flickr page;
    “The Zionist Federation called for a rally outside the Israeli Embassy in London to show support for the Israeli actions last weekend. Rumor had it that the EDL were going to turn up. They did, but only in small numbers. The Zionists though came out in force and outnumbered the Palestinian supporters at least 4/5 to one

    Things went off peacefully with only three arrests that I saw (1 Palestinian, 1 Zionist and 1 EDL). Most people (including the EDL) behaving themselves.” http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnasheruk/sets/72157624066832583/?page=2

    A blogger:
    “There were rumours that the English Defence League might turn up to support Israel, but there was neither a skinhead nor a beer-belly in sight.

    At the end the hundreds of pro-Israel supporters were escorted to the station under heavy police-guard, which isn’t surprising as they were assailed with cries of “Nazis” (see video), “Racist scum” and “Long Live Hamas”, as they passed in front of the anti-Israel supporters.”
    http://richardmillett.wordpress.com/2010/06/03/british-jews-mobilise-for-israel/

    On the other hand, Tony Greenstein has a very different account
    “Jonathan Hoffman himself gave an interview to a reporter where he openly defended demonstrating with the EDL as ‘there was no proof of any link with the BNP.’”
    http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2010/06/zionist-federation-fascist-edl-hold.html

    However, I can’t tell from Tony’s pics how he knows the people he claims to be EDL stewards are – they don’t have any EDL insignia.

  106. There were no EDL stewards at the protest, and there were few if any EDL people there at all.

    The demonstration was solely organised by the Zionist Federation. Tony Greenstein’s allegation that CST stewards worked with EDL is completely untrue and he has been asked to correct it.

    We (CST) have made our views on the EDL very clear on our blog:
    http://thecst.org.uk/blog/?p=555
    http://thecst.org.uk/blog/?p=686
    http://thecst.org.uk/blog/?p=963

    They are racist street thugs and we would never have anything to do with them.

    Jonathan Hoffman has also made the ZF’s position on the EDL clear: “The BNP and EDL have known links. The ZF will have nothing to do with either organisation.” (From this thread http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/british-jews-mobilise-israel).

    What concerns me more, is that when the BNP claim to have ethnic minority supporters, anti-fascists (a) don’t believe it or (b) contextualise it. But when the EDL claim to have the support of “Zionists” – undefined – Andy Newman and others on the left just believe it unquestioningly. I think this shows how far removed they are from understanding the thinking and feelings of ordinary British Jews, which worries me, and should worry them too.

  107. #124
    Organisers of the pro-Israel protest said they had made it clear that the EDL, who have been accused of Islamophobia, were not welcome but that a separate space had been reserved for them.
    Gaza crisis shows fault lines among UK Jews
    BBC
    03 June 2010

    How nice, liberal and democratic of the Zionist Federation to generously allow some public space for the EDL at its demostration in support of a racist war criminal state and its reign of racist international terrorism at home and abroad

  108. Clayton on said:

    So because Israel gets cristised by almost every country in the world including strong allies such as the UK, USA and Turkey, its extremist cheerleaders in London think its a good idea to allow an openly facist organisation like the EDL to protest along side it over alledged media bias bollocks, the Zionist Federation of Britain and Ireland is showing its true colours by aligning with the islamophobic EDL, I bet yesterday’s little political marriage raised a few eyebrows with EDL’s MI5 handlers in Vauxhall, wouldn’t surprise me if they start to investigate the interests and aims of ZF, because they dont seem to be acting in the best interests of the overwelming majority of UK citizens.

  109. Joe, you miss the point. The ZF can’t stop the EDL turning up to their demonstration – it was in a public place and this is a free country. That’s the law. Nor do they have the power to cordon off different areas of pavement wherever they feel like it. All they can do is say that they don’t want them in their pen, in which case the police will prepare a separate place for the EDL. Which is what happened, except that the EDL didn’t turn up.

    Clayton

    “EDL’s MI5 handlers in Vauxhall”

    Really?

  110. #114
    #67 This reference to the Grand Mufti needs to be answered and it seems that it is beyond Joe’s capabilities at the moment.
    – I can’t help thinking Stockwell Pete
    that it isn’t this Greg character who is new to this so-called debate, but yourself.

    Can’t you work out why Haj Amin Al-Husseini, and the rest of the Peoples of the Middle East, would possibly want to seek support from the enemies of their illegal occupiers, the British Empire?

    all the best

  111. I have amended the original article to say that the Zionist Federation deny a link with the EDL.

    The Zionist Federation are not a fascist organisation, and Zionism is BOTH a flawed strategy for countering anti-Semitism AND unfortunately tied with a colonialist project in the Middle East.

    The balance however betwneen those two aspects is increasingly heavily tilted towards defence of the indefencible; and dangerously seeking to link Judaism with murderous imperialism in the public perception.

  112. #128
    Thanks for correction.

    It’s difficult to tell apart the various organisations demostrating in support of racism and violent racist regimes.

    The EDL are the ones waving union jacks and israeli flags and the zionists are the ones waving union jacks and israeli flags, but in adjacent public spaces or not.

    Typical hasbara.

  113. Stockwell Pete on said:

    #129 Joe, have you always been such a patronising numpty? Read the links that I have provided and you will be able to answer your own stupid question.

  114. #124
    But when the EDL claim to have the support of “Zionists” – undefined – Andy Newman and others on the left just believe it unquestioningly. I think this shows how far removed they are from understanding the thinking and feelings of ordinary British Jews, which worries me, and should worry them too.
    – Notice the way Bob Rich elides the definition of “Zionists” with ordinary British Jews.

    So ALL British Jewish People are collectively responsible for the crimes committed by the current racist Israeli regime because they support them and therefeore make them possible.

    A typical example of zionist antisemitism – much like the antisemitism that gave Jews the blame for Bolshevism and global capitalism and the death of the Christian Messiah.

  115. Tony from AUS on said:

    #130
    As a strategy for countering anti-Semitism, Zionism was always flawed, mainly it because it adopted most of anti-Semitism’s assumptions, such as the existence of the Jewish race (which is as nonsensical as talking about the Buddhist race). In the early years of last century Zionists and anti-Semites found common purpose in opposing the “threat” of Jewish assimilation and miscegenation.

    Obviously there is a difference in terms of who is the master race.

  116. #133

    Notice the way Joe Kane elides my name with someone called Bob.

    The point I am trying to make is that most ordinary British Jews consider themselves to be Zionists in a basic way – i.e. that they support the idea of a Jewish state (however conceived) and have a basic emotional attachment to Israel (whatever they think of this or that policy of any of its governments). In other words, they self-define as Zionists in a way that has nothing to do with Zionism as it is portrayed on sites like this. I think Andy gets that point and understands its consequences, but he is in a minority here.

  117. #136

    Dave

    It is unfortunate that the voice of those Jews who are zionists in the sense that they support the right of Israel to exist, but who are highly critical of the actions of the actual Israel government and its occupation outside the 1949 borders are so quiet compared to the ultras who glorify every crime by Israel.

    The confusion identifying Zionism only with its most beligerant and extreme exponents is understandable given the fact that these ultras are rarely challenged publicly by other Jews who support Israel in a more moderate way.

    One of the most important aspects of finding a peaceful resolution is to identify interlocutors on both sides who are prepared to be critical and move away from the most extreme positions.

  118. One of the most damaging aspects of the past few years has been the polarisation of lots of people on this and many other (related) issues.

  119. Tim Vanhoof on said:

    @137: “The confusion identifying Islam only with its most beligerant and extreme exponents is understandable given the fact that these ultras are rarely challenged publicly by other Muslims who support Islam in a more moderate way.”

    You wouldn’t write that, would you?

  120. Jonathan Hoffman on said:

    The title of Greenstein’s piece is false and defamatory and I have asked him to correct it.

    (The title is “Jonathan Hoffman of the Zionist Federation Defends Joint Demonstration with Fascists).”

    The quote that Greenstein alleges that I gave to a journalist is also false and Greenstein has been asked to correct that as well.

    These are defamatory lies. If anyone chooses to, it is because they – like Greenstein – have an agenda.

  121. Jonathan Hoffman on said:

    Make that:

    If anyone chooses to believe them, it is because they – like Greenstein – have an agenda.

  122. #139

    Well clearly that is nonsense, I wouldn’t need to write that becasue many, many Muslims do indeed challenge the extremist views of Jihadi Islamists.

    And the only people who confuse Jihadis with mainstream Muslim opinion are rabid Islamophobes.

  123. Omar on said:

    “And the only people who confuse Jihadis with mainstream Muslim opinion are rabid Islamophobes.”

    A confusion largely abetted by pro-Zionists in their attempts to discredit the Palestinian resistance.

  124. #136
    The point I am trying to make is that most ordinary British Jews consider themselves to be Zionists in a basic way –
    – Yes Dave Rich that’s right.

    In the exact same way Hitler made the same point that he considered most ordinary Jews to be Bolsheviks and also behind international capitalism – also in the same way Christians, once upon a time, blamed ordinary Jews for their murder of their Messiah.

    In what way are ordinary British Jews responsible for crimes committed by violent racist regimes abroad?

    I thought it was only British Muslims who supported international campaigns of terrorism as well.

    Are there any other crimes ordinary British Jews are responsible for and which they support, which you aren’t telling us about?

  125. #137
    Andy, you are just repeating zionist propaganda.

    How long must everybody wait before Israel stops its war crime of illegal occupations and campaigns of international terrorism?

    All Israel’s neighbours have agreed to make peace with it and recognise it inside pre-1967 borders behind the Green Line, since at least the late 1970s.

    It is Israel and its supposrters, crucially the US Government, who are the extremists and who reject peace not its victims.

    Your understanding of who are the racist criminals and who are the victims in this the situation seems to be quite naive to me.

  126. Clayton on said:

    #128

    So you don’t think MI5 have informants and moles within the EDL, you’d be nieve to think they havn’t.

    Be interesting to see where this little ZF/EDL tango will lead.

    I think the EDL have tried to break up and be cause trouble at UAF meetings in the past six months havn’t they?

  127. I have only just learnt of the existence of this discussion, but better late than never!

    My article last night http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2010/06/zionist-federation-fascist-edl-hold.html on what happened at the Zionist Federation demonstration against the murder of peace activists on the boats to Gaza served its purpose, which was to smoke out Hoffman and co. In that it admirably succeeded.

    Yes of course I didn’t believe that the Zionist Federation had actually co-organised the demonstration with the EDL! But what was also clear to me last night, having travelled up from Brighton because I had heard of their possible presence, was that those who organised and stewarded the demonstration were remarkably unconcerned about the presence of known fascists and EDL supporters within their ranks. That has been confirmed by Mr Hoffman on my site and incidentally by Dave Rich.

    What did JH say in the comments to the article I wrote:

    ‘I told the journalist from “Race Today” (I think that was the name of the paper) that insofar as there was crossover between EDL and BNP they were to be abhorred.’ ‘Insofar as there was crossover…’ So if there was no crossover and the two organisations were as separate as they claim, would their anti-Muslim racism be acceptable? We know that to many Zionists it would be acceptable.

    Again on the comments Dave Rich says that ‘from what I can tell, they were barely present. The Jewish Chronicle report (http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/32425/hundreds-demonstrate-israel-london) says that there was one EDL member spotted and we concur with this estimate.’ So let me understand this right. CST stewarded the demonstration and that it included at least one EDL member and they made no attempt to remove him?

    Bob says quoting from a flickr page that:
    “The Zionist Federation called for a rally outside the Israeli Embassy in London to show support for the Israeli actions last weekend. Rumor had it that the EDL were going to turn up. They did, but only in small numbers. The Zionists though came out in force and outnumbered the Palestinian supporters at least 4/5 to one
    Things went off peacefully with only three arrests that I saw (1 Palestinian, 1 Zionist and 1 EDL). Most people (including the EDL) behaving themselves.” http://www.flickr.com/photos/gnasheruk/sets/72157624066832583/?page=2
    It is clear that there was more than 1 EDL member there. There was no separate contingent and they all met and chanted together.

    Now to reply to the other points on this debate:

    i. Firstly if it was indeed the intention of Greg to diver the discussion then he succeeded!
    ii. Andy is right about Haifa University, which has the highest number of Arab students, 20%, of any Israeli university. That is because it is nearest to the Galilee since its adminstration is as racist as they come. The said ‘nasty sexual bullying’ e-mails come from a supporter of the late Meir Kahane, and out and out Zionist Nazi and I use that word deliberately in his case. The person in question is a business professor, Steve Plaut.
    iii. Re Jonny Mac’s postings, which of course take up the defamatory prop of ‘anti-Semitism’. What Israel did on the high seas in murdering people whose sole concern was to relieve the hunger and deprivation in Gaza has nothing whatsoever to do with anti-Semitism. As someone who has been active in the fight against fascism and anti-Semitism of the real kind for over 30 years I can honestly say, hand on heart, that I could count the number of Zionists who have also taken an active part in running them off the streets on the fingers of one hand. The Zionist movement in this country has never been interested in fighting anti-Semitism. Hence why it libels anti-racists as anti-Semitism in as graphic a piece of Orwellian double think as you are likely to find.
    iv. So Mr Mac is correct and it is possible to be against both Israeli crimes AND anti-semitism’. Indeed if you support Israeli crimes the chances are that your opposition to anti-Semitism is nothing more than opposition to Zionism.
    v. But, and the main point is that no one should feel constrained to have to condemn anti-Semitism when we are talking about Israel because Israel doesn’t act in the name of anyone but itself and the United States
    vi. I have to say to Omar that he is wrong, but well intentioned! Goldstone is a liberal Zionist and has only been painted into a corner by the hysterical reaction of those who know that Israel committed war crimes in Gaza and who therefore target the messenger. Chomsky, although in his own way a soft Zionist is indeed an incisive critic but Jeffrey Blankfort certainly merits the label of anti-Semite. Someone who plays with holocaust denial and keeps company with Gilad Atzmon and Paul Eisen, being on the Board of an anti-Semitic organisation Deir Yassin Remembered, should be treated with a very wide birth. Blankfort really does believe the Jews are responsible for American foreign policy.
    vii. The one point which Greg made which requires answering is re muslims buying Mein Kampf. It is true that on the surface many Arabs and indeed many people in the third world do believe there was no holocaust. Why? Because if you use the holocaust to justify the barbarities against the Palestinians some people will come to the conclusion that the holocaust has not occurred. I will suspend judgment until I’ve read it on Gilbert Achcar’s book (since I’ve been asked to a review!) but Arab ‘anti-Semitism’ is a reflex mirror form of racism. It repeats what those who are anti-Semitic say without every understanding why. The holocaust made little or no impression on the Arabs – Jewish or non-Jewish.

    I have a video on my site http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2010/02/hitler-was-right-say-zionists.html showing 2 Zionists shouting ‘Hitler was right’ and ‘to the extermination camps’ at Jewish leftists taking part in the Sheikh Jarrah demonstrations against the eviction of Arab families in Jerusalem. Who are they? Oriental/Misrahi Jews for whom the holocaust never had any concrete reality. It is a propaganda weapon.

    The Mufti of Jerusalem was a British appointee and in fact a Zionist one! He was appointed by the first British High Commissioner, Herbert Samuel, despite having lost an election to become Mufti. He came 4th. He was also a scion of an old landlord family, the Husseinis. Yes he was a (minor) war criminal whose role is exaggerated by the Zionists for obvious reasons.
    The parallel with Arab support for the Nazis (very minor compared to support for the Communist Party) was that of support by Indians for the Indian National Army under Chandra Bose or the equivalent support for the Japanese in Burma by those fighting the British. As Joe says, it was a case of my enemy’s enemy is my friend.

    Stockwell Pete also mentioned 3 books on Palestinian. Let me also add Nathan Weinstock’s Zionism A False Messiah and Abram Leon’s The Jewish Question – A Marxist Interpretation. There are also some good Zionist books surprisingly! A modern history of Israel by Noah Lucas for one and Walter Lacquer’s History of Zionism for another.

    I’m sorry Mikey didn’t like my ‘crass’ review of Francis Nicosia’s two books on Zionism and anti-Semitism. I divorce an author’s opinions from his research. The research of Nicosia is quite devastating. The fact is that the Zionists broke the anti-fascist boycott of Nazi Germany setting up a trading organisation and mechanism called Ha’avarah. Between 1933 and 1939 60% of capital investment in Jewish Palestine came from Nazi Germany! The Zionists were consistently favoured by the Nazis above non-Zionist groups in Germany, there is no historical dispute on this and Nicosia elaborates on this, including the welcome that the Zionists gave to the Nuremburg Laws of 1935. The fact that the Zionists possessed no more power than the anti-Zionists is neither here nor there.

    As Nicosia writes in his book of Alfred Rosenberg:
    ‘Alfred Rosenberg, the Nazis Minister for the Eastern Territories was Hitler’s favourite theoretician. Rosenburg argued that ‘Zionism must be vigorously supported in order to encourage a significant number of German Jews to leave for Palestine or other destinations.’ [1:25] He was also fond of citing the Zionists’ own statements: ‘Rosenberg’s argument that the Zionist movement could be utilized to promote the political, social and cultural segregation of Jews in Germany, as well as their emigration, was eventually transformed into policy by the Hitler regime after 1933.’ [Ibid and see 2:70] Rosenberg’s approach would become ‘a central element in Nazi Jewish policy after 1933.’ (p.70)
    And the German Zionists used their favoured status in order to undermine their non-Zionist opponoents. As Nicosia again writes: ‘The German Zionists sought to use the advent of Hitler in order to oust their ‘assimilationist’ opponents from the leadership of the Jewish community. The Zionists went as far as denouncing and even disrupting the meetings of the CV.’ The CV (Centralverein was the main communal defence body of German Jewry. (p.167)

    But what Jonathan Hoffman and Dave Rich seem unable to understand is what is it about Israel and Zionism that makes them attractive, not merely to the EDL and BNP but to nearly every far-right party in Europe? For more details see ‘Israel’s anti-Semitic friends’ http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2009/11/israels-anti-semitic-friends.html

    Tony Greenstein

  128. Omar on said:

    #147
    Some fair points, Tony. Re Goldstone, yes I know he is a liberal Zionist( which gave him credibility in the mainstream media) but he WAS author of a fairly comprehensive report that did,rightly, name Israel as being guilty of war crimes .
    As for Blankfort I wasn’t aware of his ties to Atzmon but I don’t think he is all that far off the mark in his criticism of the Zionist lobby in Washington. And in light of Israel’s refusal to compromise towards the peaceful settlement the U.S. gives the “appearance” of supporting, one does start to wonder if the the theory that Israel is strictly a tool of imperialism is 100% accurate. I do think that were it not for the tenacity of the Zionist lobby over the last few decades, we may have had a bit more progress in Palestine. He has also been one of the few people to highlight the link between the AFL ( American Federation of Labour) and their investing of members pension funds in State of Israel bonds which may go some way to explaining why much of the U.S. labor-left tends to tow the mainstrean line with regards to Israel.

  129. Dave Rich on said:

    Again on the comments Dave Rich says that ‘from what I can tell, they were barely present. The Jewish Chronicle report (http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/32425/hundreds-demonstrate-israel-london) says that there was one EDL member spotted and we concur with this estimate.’ So let me understand this right. CST stewarded the demonstration and that it included at least one EDL member and they made no attempt to remove him?

    You have understood it wrong. There was one EDL person present, but he was not in the demonstration, he was stood elsewhere. Maybe there were one or two others there too, I don’t know, but not in the demonstration. It was in a public place and as I’m sure you know we nor anyone else have the power to prevent people from standing and watching.

  130. Dave Rich on said:

    Sorry, I mean we do not have the power to prevent people from standing and watching.

  131. To be honest I don’t care how many EDL were on the demonstration or even if they were there at all.
    What is utterly appalling is that some people in London thought it was appropriate to take what looks like overwhelmingly young people to celebrate the murder of 12 people.
    http://tinyurl.com/2e8vhnp
    We now know that Furkan Dogan (19) was shot 4 times in the head and once in the chest at close range.
    http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Media/american-killed-gaza-aid-flotilla/story?id=10814848
    He was executed in cold blood in international waters by Israeli naval commandos.
    And you depraved fuckers took children on a demo to celebrate this while demanding more.
    “Kill the Arabs” Israelis chanted on the shore as the boats were brought in.
    They will reap the whirlwind.

  132. “Mark Israel מארק Thank you EDL members who attended the rally last evening, your support nwas very much apprecisated as we Jews can say we no longer stand alone!

    We Jews were very pleased to meet and stand shoulder to shoulder with the EDL who showed us so much respect and proved beyond doubt they are our friends and allies!

    Shalom to yo…”

    From the EDL Jewish Division. Sickening but predictable support from Zionists for the racist and nazi EDL. They have to stoop to receiving support from the racist EDL because no one else will support their apartheid state.

  133. I should have used quotations when referring to the so-called EDL “Jewish” Division because of course these racist Zionists in no way represent Jewish people. They are disgracefully working with the new generation of Holocaust deniers and anti-Semites in the EDL.

  134. I think the pretence that there was only ‘one’ EDLer on the demonstration has been blown out of the water. Or was he the only one arrested? Either way what Dave Rich won’t answer is why is it that the BNP/EDL so admire Israel and its murder of Muslims and leftists? I have no doubt that your blindness on the night was of the Nelsonian kind.

    I agree with Eddie Truman. What sad, sicko can celebrate the murder of at least 9 and possibly many more activists, whose only ‘crime’ was trying to deliver aid to Gaza and set in motion the destruction of this Nazi-like blockade. Because yes, ‘death by hunger’ was the idea of Governor-General Frank of Poland’s General Government. True Dov Weissglass, adviser to Israel’s PM, only wanted to ‘put Palestinians on a diet’ but it doesn’t take a brilliant brain to see the ideological similarities. Just as Matan Vilnai’s promise (deputy defence minister) of ‘a little Shoah’ i.e. holocaust isn’t the same as the real thing but is indicative of the mentality of Zionism’s supporters.

    Now that Israel has been forced to release most of the activists (but not all and we don’t know if they’ve disposed of bodies or incarcerated people without others knowing – don’t forget they arrest their own citizens and injunct newspapers not to reveal even the existence of the court proceedings) the story is starting to come out about this fable of heavily armed and trained troops in fear of their lives. The shamelessness of this recalls Goebbels big-lie. The bigger the lie the more believable it is.

    At the end of the day Zionism glories in blood and seeks to defend the indefensible, as does settler colonialism wherever it has taken root.

    Omar doubts some of what I say. Blankfort is close to Atzmon and for that reason should be given a wide berth. In fact he sits alongside open holocaust deniers, Israel Shamir and Paul Eisen in DYR and that is an even better reason to blank him.

    Blankfort isn’t alone in criticising the detestable Zionist lobby. I certainly do and I’ve never said that Israel is merely a tool of imperialism. That would indeed be untrue. For a start US imperialism isn’t itself a monolith. There are differences between the present regime and Bush, but not ones of principle. Israel fulfills a function for US imperialism, bluntly put it keeps Arabs cowed. But it’s got its own interests too and sometimes they diverge as e.g. over arms to China. The US has no strategic interest in a blockade on Gaza or settlements on the West Bank but it is also not going to attack a state that is more loyal to it than most US citizens.

    It is a question of give and take. Of course if Israel stepped out of line and launched a new war to capture the East Bank of the Jordan and Sinai for good measure then you watch how fast the US administration acts. Eisenhower’s rebuke to Israel and more in 1956 over Suez would be nothing in comparison (he said that an aggressor state cannot put conditions on its own withdrawal).

    But don’t confuse the lobby with Jews, even a minority thereof. Zionism is above all a staple of the US Right and neo-cons. The US Christian Zionists are much more powerful than any Jewish Zionist neo-cons. Those who advocate the use of force first to support US interests do indeed support an Israel of the same opinion. If Blankfort did what Mersheimmer/Walt do, of attacking the lobby but making a clear distinction between that and US Jews, a great many of whom are moving away from Zionist militarism then I would agree.

    I know nothing of his efforts re the AFL/CIO but I don’t agree with you that pension funds are a cause as much as a symptom. The AFL/CIO has been above all a cold war union, acting abroad in pursuit of US foreign policy objectives. They supported the Vietnam and Korean Wars, the Teamsters attacked anti-Vietnam demonstrators in New York, basically right-wing US Labor made a pact with the capitalist devil and accepted its share of the imperialist cake. Moshe Machover and others in the Class Nature of Israeli Society (NLR) analysed nearly 40 years ago how Histadrut and AFL/CIO worked together in places like Africa on behalf of the Est. But Blankfort himself has nothing to offer.

  135. “Sickening but predictable support from Zionists for the racist and nazi EDL.”
    I wouldn’t give much credence to a Facebook page where, as far as I can tell, only 1 or 2 people are actually active. The EDL also have a (far more active) LGBT division, but no one would infer from that any “Sickening but predictable support from gays for the racist and nazi EDL.” There are also prominent Sikh members of the ELD – again, noone would generalise from this about Sikhs. We are talking about a tiny handful of cranks.

  136. Clayton on said:

    Whats been quite unique about the massacare onboard the Freedom Flotilla is that none of its victims were Palestinians, and the mudererous operation took place outside the West Bank and Gaza in International waters, highlighting to the world the dispicable amounts of violence that Israel thinks its allowed to use against its critics. Israels morally blind cheer leaders can try and devert as much attention as they want to smearing the flotilla activists, by claiming they sang little songs about them, or that the IHH are linked to terrorists on the evidence of something they did in the 1990’s. it (and isnt) won’t wash with the majority of people who saw with their own eyes on the 24 hour news networks how Israel used an elite commando unit to murder people, and were then treated to snipits of of incomplete footage about how these solders were attacked, followed by lies and spin from the likes of Mark Regev.

    But as if this world PR disaster is not bad enough, and falling out with your main allies and being totally isolated on the world stage, along come the likes of the UK Zionist Federation, alledgy demonstrating against BBC media bias but not demonstrating about this outside BBC television centre but outside the Israeli embassy on wednesday night. It came across in the press that they were dancing on the graves of the murdered flotilla members, and sickened the general public by endorsing the revolting actions of the Israeli commandos in killing peace activists, and then to have the EDL on this event as well, you really couldn’t make it up! Ron Prosser the Israeli Ambassador must have been watching this demonstration with his fingers over his eyes – just wishing that they would stop adding to Israels humiliation.

    The EDL might not have been offically invited along to the demonstration, but they were cordially invited, you can gauge how much the ZF and its supporters welcomed the EDL into its ranks on wednesday night by the pro EDL comments that have been popping up on the posts over at Harry’s place. On one of these posts – was a rather good and well written piece by Malatesta called the EDL; one year on, highlighting the actions and disasters surrounding the EDL over the past year.

    What is surprising is the reaction and response from the HP regulars, full of scorn and insults towards the piece, even though the EDL has nothing what so ever to do with Israel and the politcal aims of Harrys Place, and some many even go as far as to praise the workings of the EDL, I bet the website founders didn’t think that their hardcore of zionist extremists and others who view the site would put them in this position, and it has been highlighted in the posts put up by Harrys place, they’ve been caught like a rabbit in the headlights, and can’t put up to many flotilla items as it encourages the harcore to post islamophobic and hateful comments on the site.

  137. #158

    “Ron Prosser the Israeli Ambassador must have been watching this demonstration with his fingers over his eyes – just wishing that they would stop adding to Israels humiliation.”

    I am not sure about that. Israel seems to be locked into a mindset of entitlement and vitimhood which affects inteligent diplomats as well as the numpties.

  138. #158

    Yes I went and had a look at the comments on the Harrys Place EDL thread, and it is extraordinary. Simply full of largely unchalenged support for the EDL.

    One of the things this reflects is the collpase of morale at harrys Place since David T took more a back seat; and the fact that such a high proportion of their readership is from Israel and North America.

    Having started as seeing themselves as a centre-left by pro-war website, they have found that space too narrow to sustain them, and have developed an audeince that is simply racist and pro-war.