Tower Hamlets: “homophobia Row” over Budget Meeting

Posted by Andy Newman on 2 March, 2011

Islamophobia, LGBT, Tower Hamlets

The murky waters of Tower Hamlets politics have been further muddied over the last week by accusations of homophobia by Labour councillor Anne Lynch [pictured], which have been repeated as fact by Rachel Sanders on Labour List in a desperate attempt to implicate the independent mayor, Lutfur Rahman through guilt by association.

Tower Hamlets Respect Party chair Carole Swords beleives that there are some in the Labour Party who have jumped to conclusions about homophobia, and given the climate of Islamophobia, they should be more reflective:

“Completely unjustified accusations were levelled against Muslim members of the public gallery at last week’s council meeting by a Labour councillor. That councillor claimed a homophobic comment was made, an allegation vehemently denied by those against whom this accusation was made. When some of the public remonstrated with that councillor, she then claimed she was being threatened. Now the chair of the local Labour Party, Carli Harper-Penman, has not only repeated these unfounded allegations against Muslim members of the public, she has sought to smear the Mayor Lutfur Rahman that he failed to act on the basis of these allegations.

“Given these claims were contested and not one council officer heard the comments despite their presence in the public gallery, both he and the council’s chief legal officer Isabella Freeman acted perfectly appropriately. The same cannot be said of the Labour chairman of the council who cleared the public gallery on the basis of these unsupported allegations. I conclude that Labour is motivated by a desire to smear sections of the Muslim community who do not support Labour and the Mayor and his administration. This is quite disgusting but sadly entirely consistent with the campaign of denigration systematically carried out by sections of the Labour Party for many months if not years.”

Councillor Fozol Miah has written to Kevan Collins, the Chief Executive of Tower Hamlets Council pointing out that the allegations of a homophobic comment are very serious, and that Councillor Anna Lynch’s account of the incident is not corroborated by other people who were there:

Dear Kevan,

I have seen a letter sent to you by Carli Harper-Penman. I have to say I am disgusted by the contents of that letter.

Councillor Lynch claimed she heard a homophobic comment. This was vehemently denied by all those in the vicinity of where she claimed the comment came from. Officers present also said they heard no such comment. Councillor Lynch then claimed that she was threatened and/or intimidated by someone because of the comments she had made. Again, absolutely no evidence of this was forthcoming.

We take homophobia very seriously and we would not hesitate to condemn any homophobic comments or actions, but we have seen and heard no evidence that any such event too place last Wednesday. The same applies to any threat that might be made to a councillor. We would condemn any such action but we have seen no evidence that such an action took place. In the absence of such evidence, these allegations constitute a slur against at least a section of the public who attended the council’s budget setting meeting, as is their democratic right.

Although we in the Respect Party have had our disagreements with the Assistant Chief Executive Legal Services in the past, on this occasion, I believe that she acted entirely correctly. However the chairman of the council, on the other hand, acted quite wrongly to clear the public gallery in the face of these unsubstantiated allegations. Our democracy is limited enough without this kind of high-handed action which I believe owed more to Labour playing political games. It is the chairman of the council who owes an apology to the public he ejected from the meeting.

I very much hope that Councillor Harper-Penman’s letter will be rejected by you for the political shenanigans it represents.

Yours sincerely,

Councillor Fozol Miah, Town Hall, Mulberry Place, London E14 2BG

A further letter has been written by someone who was in the public gallery, complaining to Isabella Freeman, Chief Legal Officer of Tower Hamlets Council about the behaviour of Councillor Anna Lynch:

Dear Ms Freeman,

I am writing to register a complaint against Councillor Anna Lynch regarding her behaviour at yesterday’s Council Budget Meeting.

Councillor Lynch falsely accused a group of us in the public gallery of calling out ‘poofta’ , whilst Councillor Peter Golds was addressing the chamber. I believe that her accusation was based purely on prejudice, as she haphazardly selected a Muslim group to blame. It was deeply insulting and shameful to be accused of such heinous behaviour.

It was subsequently confirmed by other members of the public and council officers that they didn’t hear such a remark being made. We thought the issue had been resolved at that point.

However, during the recess she approached some police officers at the corridor and told them that she was being threatened by members of the public; the police took no notice of her allegations, as it lacked any substance.

Subsequently, she entered the public gallery and provoked a young man and he called her ‘a liar’. I believe she did this to substantiate her false allegation of being threatened. She then proceeded to inform the Chair of the Council that she had been threatened.

The Chair of the Council then asked Shiraz Haque, a respected businessman and community leader, to leave the public gallery, as he believed he had threatened Councillor Lynch. After an uproar from the public gallery, the Chair realised that Mr Haque wasn’t culpable of the accusation and he decided to ask another member of the public to leave. The Chair had no control of the meeting and indiscriminately chose members of the public to evict.

During my time as a community activist, I have led many deputations and petitions to the council. I have attended many council meetings and have never witnessed such mischievous behaviour from a councillor. The meeting descended into a travesty due to the actions of Councillor Lynch. Members of the public took valuable time out of their schedule to participate in local democracy. For many members it was the first council meeting they had attended. What they witnessed was an utter disgrace.

I am demanding a written apology from Councillor Lynch for her false allegations and role in descending the meeting into chaos. I trust you will forward my complaint on to the standards committee.

Yours Faithfully,

Mahbub Alam (Mamun)
CC: Mayor Lutfur Rahman, Dr Kevan Collins

Clearly given the seriousness of these allegations, then there needs to be an inquiry. If it is true that Councillor Lynch has made false allegations, then she is playing a dangerous game in seeking to stoke up antagonisms in the borough. Homophobia is far too serious an issue to be used as a political football.

154 thoughts on “Tower Hamlets: “homophobia Row” over Budget Meeting”

BS on 2 March, 2011 at 12:18 pm said:

What you thought it could not get worse

Oh dear lord

BSQuote text Reply
Eamonn Wright on 2 March, 2011 at 1:06 pm said:

Ms Lynch has a lovely knitted look. Id certainly vote for someone who looks so positively middle class.

Eamonn WrightQuote text Reply
Harlequin on 2 March, 2011 at 1:54 pm said:

Never mind this, the recent springing up of homophobic ‘gay free zone’ posters in Tower Hamlets is something this site might have commented on. East London Mosques’ history of hosting homophobic speakers, some of whom advocate killing gay people, deserves some scrutiny, as does the rise in homophobic crime there – and the rest of London. I wonder where Hope Not Hate are. Evidently some kinds of fascism are less important than others.

This case looks like a bit of political opportunism and smearing by Labour. Meanwhile real homophobic smears in Tower Hamlets deserve to be noted and condemned, and considering the amount of coverage this site gives to TH, the lack of comment on that matter is striking – and not impressive.

HarlequinQuote text Reply
Harlequin on 2 March, 2011 at 2:12 pm said:

“As for the anti-gay stickers that went up: many local gay activists saw this as a black-ops campaign by either the EDL or similar forces.”

Of course. And I suppose the succession of homophobic preachers playing ‘spot the fag’ etc at ELM have all been part of a black-ops campaign by the EDL too?

HarlequinQuote text Reply
ism on 2 March, 2011 at 2:31 pm said:

Blacks ops my arse

ismQuote text Reply
SA on 2 March, 2011 at 3:17 pm said:

It should be quite straight forward to resolve. Kevan Collins will ask his officers who attended what they heard. They will tell him. Councillor Lynch will then be vindicated or exposed as a liar.

SAQuote text Reply
Halshall on 2 March, 2011 at 3:28 pm said:

#8

I hope we will be kept informed of the outcome of the above enquiry.

HalshallQuote text Reply
sheffielder on 2 March, 2011 at 3:42 pm said:

#5 – “As for the anti-gay stickers that went up: many local gay activists saw this as a black-ops campaign by either the EDL or similar forces. They responded very well with a joint initiative aimed at uniting the different communities in the East End.”

Thats disgusting. You have completed lost the plot.

sheffielderQuote text Reply
Kevin Ovenden on 2 March, 2011 at 3:49 pm said:

5 and 6

The response of local LGBT activists was exactly to spot these as a far right provocation. The sectarian salafist stuff has a particular style – semantically and typographically. These didn’t have it. You should know that the people who identified these as the actions of provocateurs are nothing to do with what you might regard as the Islamo-fascist left. They are middle of the road folk with their heads screwed on right. And that’s a good starting point in life, let alone politics.

Their response gives me some confidence that the bulk of liberal opinion is not going to be marshalled behind this scaremongering.

Readers here really need to understand that the people who drove out the Labour mayoral candidate in Tower Hamlets are quite extreme. They are not the basic core of the party and they do not reflect middle of the road opinion in Tower Hamlets.

Kevin OvendenQuote text Reply
sheffielder on 2 March, 2011 at 3:52 pm said:

#13 – Are you now ‘ middle of the road ‘ Kevin? Thats some political journey you have made in a short space of time!

sheffielderQuote text Reply
cjcjc on 2 March, 2011 at 4:16 pm said:

No worries about any of those London Muslim Centre speakers then, Kevin?

cjcjcQuote text Reply
Barts on 2 March, 2011 at 4:51 pm said:

Hi Kevin

Do you think that these stickers were put up by the English Defence League to frame Muslims?

If that is the case, then it is absolutely disgusting. It would be the final nail in the EDL’s coffin.

Can you let me know what your reasons for believing that the EDL are behind putting up the gay free zone stickers? It would be helpful to have chapter and verse on this.

BartsQuote text Reply
cjcjc on 2 March, 2011 at 5:17 pm said:

Meanwhile the hate preachers will still be invited.

cjcjcQuote text Reply
Sandra on 2 March, 2011 at 5:24 pm said:

#19 It’s a free country ain’t it?

SandraQuote text Reply
ism on 2 March, 2011 at 5:43 pm said:

black ops still my arse

ismQuote text Reply
Vanya on 2 March, 2011 at 5:47 pm said:

#10 That’s a convincing and intelligent argument Sheffielder.

I’m impressed.

VanyaQuote text Reply
Barts on 2 March, 2011 at 5:56 pm said:

Thanks – that’s very good.

“he had imbibed all sorts of prejudices in the society and he acted on them, with savagery”

Young men get these prejudices from groups like the EDL. That is why we have to stamp the EDL out.

BartsQuote text Reply
ism on 2 March, 2011 at 6:00 pm said:

What about the causal factors of following the atmosphere of a organist religious life kev?. Remember those days kev when you could criticize ‘organized religion’ with out the Bob Pitt of anger and the Lenny Lenin of retribution, or the salivating prospect of a new muscular proletariat to replace the old.

ismQuote text Reply
Andy Newman on 2 March, 2011 at 6:07 pm said:

#26

“As for the fairly thuggish, barely muted, threats from a commenter above against Andy and threatening his membership of the Labour Party ”

Thanks for mentioning that Kevin, but I am extremely relaxed about this sort of bluff and bluster.

Andy NewmanQuote text Reply
Vanya on 2 March, 2011 at 6:10 pm said:

#26 The commentator in question refers in another comment to LGBT people as “gays” which I found a bit quaint. Not that I’m obsessed with politically correct terminology.

Interesting that another Blairite type who regularly comments on here hinted that there would have been some justification for the attack on our meeting in Oldham if the perpetrators had been Woolas supporters in the local Labour Party (obviously we know they weren’t).

Hopefully such characters have more to worry about in terms of disciplinary action than the likes of Andy.

VanyaQuote text Reply
ism on 2 March, 2011 at 6:12 pm said:

You don’t have to imbibe the whole internal discipline of a religious life to have influences from the religion you are brought up in kev.
And its almost if your saying in your reply that lad needed to more pious and more religious life in order to be a better person.
Your tailgating of religions and your mirror opposite of the EDL (EDL Muslims are total fuckers/You and your lot Muslims can do no wrong) has infected your every thought now kev.

ismQuote text Reply
tony collins on 2 March, 2011 at 6:47 pm said:

Well, regardless of who is behind the stickers, the right response would be for Muslims and gays to unite on the issues of racism and homophobia, as opposed to the right’s (in Labour and outside it) attempts to divide people precisely along those lines.

There are attempts to do just that in Tower Hamlets, but the more extreme voices on the liberal right are deliberately trying to say the issue is entirely about homophobia, and are creaming themselves at the idea of setting a litmus test for local Muslims.

Those in the borough who are simply well-meaning will hopefully spot quite quickly that many of the more organised “anti-homophobia” lot are ideologically driven, from Quilliam-supporting groups to open association with the EDL, often the same people. I hope that those well-meaning people will remember the thousands of young Muslim men and women who came out onto the streets last year to march against fascism, and understand that the key to defeating homophobia is to reach out across communities with the message “the same people who hate you, hate us”, and forge strong bonds with locals of all stripes.

I think there are brilliant opportunities to build understanding between communities right now; I hope that those who are using homophobia as yet another weapon against local Muslims will come to realise that there is much to gain from holding a hand out, much to gain from making the first move. The Muslim community is under attack – how much better would it be to hold out a hand and say “we know what you’re going through”?

Perhaps people haven’t had much chance to observe Tower Hamlets, but I’ve been proud to have so much support against homophobia by prominent local Muslims as well as the kids on the estates, who are far more sophisticated than the stereotypes give them credit for, but who also know when they are being targetted, yet again, simply for the fact that they are Muslim.

tony collinsQuote text Reply
ism on 2 March, 2011 at 7:05 pm said:

How comes all of the respect left and the most of the libral left sound alike.
I’m surprised tony collins didn’t say ‘smash’ ‘brilliant’ ‘fantastic response’ ‘diverse communities’

‘the liberal right’
No such thing exists.

ismQuote text Reply
ism on 2 March, 2011 at 7:05 pm said:

My mistake he did say ‘brilliant’

ismQuote text Reply
tony collins on 2 March, 2011 at 7:52 pm said:

And “ism”, I’m not surprised that you have only dishonest non-arguments to put.

tony collinsQuote text Reply
Nadia Chern on 2 March, 2011 at 8:01 pm said:

‘ism’ is a consummate idiot to boot. There’s no such thing as the liberal right?! You obviously have not lived in Britain since the ConDems came to power or even during the period of Blairism.

Even the Lib Dems admit the existence of differing political strands within their party.

Nadia ChernQuote text Reply
Robert on 2 March, 2011 at 8:32 pm said:

Not only that but some liberals are to the right of some Tories.

RobertQuote text Reply
Harlequin on 2 March, 2011 at 9:22 pm said:

Just before Derby and Nottingham pride last July, stickers identical to those which have gone up recently in the East End went up in both cities.And at each pride parade on the day there were protests by a small group of Islamists (recognsed by some as followers of the banned Al Muhajiroun) at Derby Pride and Nottingham Pride:

http://nottingham.indymedia.org.uk/articles/240

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2010/07/12/small-muslim-protest-fails-to-hinder-derby-pride/

In Derby, again in July last year, two men, Razwan Javed and Kabir Ahme were arrested outside the Jamia mosque for distributing leaflets which cited the death penalty for homosexuals. And last month five more Muslim men were arrested in Derby for doing exactly the same. meanwhile a poster on hackneycitizen claims: “The person I saw putting up one of these stickers in Whitechapel last September was a fashionably dressed twenty-something Anglo-Asian man.About 5 foot 10.”

http://www.hackneycitizen.co.uk/2011/02/21/stickers-declare-gay-free-zone-in-hackney/

But Kevin and others expect us to believe that the stickers that went up in london are probably an EDL black OP. One can see how the EDL could want to exploit such a division, but the circumstantial evidence does suggest this is Muslim, not non-Muslim bigots. A tiny minority to be sure, but a vile crime.

Either way, the complacency regarding the ELM is deserving of contempt. It has hosted numerous homophobic hate-preachers over recent years, including Abu “Take that homosexual man and throw him from a mountain” Usamah, Bilal Philips and Zakir Naik who similarly advocate killing homosexuals, and Abdul Karim ‘spot the fag’ Hattin. But Kevin Ovenden is so ‘relaxed’ about this that he can’t even be bothered to acknowledge that this happens, let alone that it might have anything to do with a climate in which people feel emboldened to put up ‘Gay free Zone’ posters. I suppose that’s hardly surprising in view of his own support for the place. I doubt he would be so keen on understanding gay bars that hosted EDL speakers.

@ ‘tony collins’

“I hope that those who are using homophobia as yet another weapon against local Muslims…”

Presumably you too think the homophobia of speakers at ELM is all part of some EDL plot to make Muslims look bad?

Homophobia is first and last a weapon against LGBT people. Try and focus. It’s not a subcategory of Islamophobia.

HarlequinQuote text Reply
tony collins on 2 March, 2011 at 9:43 pm said:

Presumably you too think the homophobia of speakers at ELM is all part of some EDL plot to make Muslims look bad?

What makes you think you are worthy of a response when you write such utter bullshit and presume to know what I think?

tony collinsQuote text Reply
Harlequin on 2 March, 2011 at 9:56 pm said:

Because you treated homophobia as a subcategory of Islamophobia, as if this instance could only be conceived as a case of trying to get at another, ‘real’ target, i.e. Muslims. That trivialises homophobia, and is demeaning to gay people. You and others appear to be determined to ignore considerable circumstantial evidence that this was not EDL but simply a few unpleasant and persistent Islamists, in favour of your ideological bias. While the nearby ELM has blatantly hosted numerous homophobic Islamist preachers, and continues to do so, your refuge in the EDL conspiracy theory seems less like an attempt to deal with homophobia than to sweep it under the carpet. So I don’t really mind how or if you respond again, because you’ve already shown your refusal to treat the crimes seriously, logically and honestly.

HarlequinQuote text Reply
tony collins on 2 March, 2011 at 10:09 pm said:

See what I mean? You haven’t seen any “conspiracy theory” from me, yet you have decided I believe in one, and you have based your whole non-argument around it, and some notion that I see homophobia as a “subcategory” of Islamophobia, something which I neither said nor implied.

As I do with all deceitful debaters, I will tell you that you are not worthy of a response until you can actually be honest enough to stop responding to what you *think* I said and start discussing what I *actually* said. The core of which was that victims of both the issues – homophobia and Islamophobia – should unite and build bridges.

For some reason, that simple idea, one of unifying over the bigotries which both communities are victims of, has proved beyond your ability to debate. I can’t think why you would instead lie about what I said.

tony collinsQuote text Reply
Harlequin on 2 March, 2011 at 10:14 pm said:

I di refer to what you actually said. You said “I hope that those who are using homophobia as yet another weapon against local Muslims…”

i.e. you ignored the obvious fact that homophobia is bigotry against LGBT people first and last, and treated it merely as a weapon to smear Muslims. You also, predictably, like Kevin Ovenden, ignored the role of ELM in providing the most striking local platform for homophobes. You’ve done that twice now, which speaks volumes about your priorities.

HarlequinQuote text Reply
Harlequin on 2 March, 2011 at 10:18 pm said:

And here “The more extreme voices on the liberal right are deliberately trying to say the issue is entirely about homophobia”

The stickers issue IS entirely about homophobia, unless one resorts to the tortuous reasoning, counter to the evidence, that this is an EDL black op rather than plain old homophobia.

HarlequinQuote text Reply
tony collins on 2 March, 2011 at 10:20 pm said:

Well you see I spoke about a number of different types of people – those who are trying to unify, those who are well meaning, *and* those who are using it as a weapon. For some unfathomable reason you don’t seem to be able to read the actual words that people use, and you seem to think I think *everyone* is using homophobia to attack Muslims, rather than, as was clear from my post, some people.

You cannot deny that there are those – the EDL, for example – who seek to use homophobia only to further the attacks on Muslims. Can you really deny that? Do you really think that the EDL doesn’t do that? So, y’see, I spoke of a number of different responses. In fact, the first group of people I spoke about was those who are attempting to unify Muslims and gay people. You don’t seem to have noticed that though, despite me starting a paragraph with it. Do you perhaps need some help in reading?

That you are so wilfully blind to what I said speaks volumes for your priorities, I’m afraid. You have yet to respond to what I said about what I think needs to be done (ie unity between victims of Islamophobia and victims of homophobia).

But, I repeat, you seemed entirely unable to deal with the meat of what I actually said, and decided to imagine that I have a conspiracy theory.

So, no, you didn’t respond to what I said. Not at all. 0/10 for effort.

tony collinsQuote text Reply
tony collins on 2 March, 2011 at 10:28 pm said:

And here “The more extreme voices on the liberal right are deliberately trying to say the issue is entirely about homophobia”

You are almost absurd in your dishonesty. That quote was from a post that spoke about unifying the victims of both, and that some people don’t want to do that. Some good voices in Tower Hamlets are saying that the best way to deal with the homophobia is to build bridges with the Muslim community, by linking all the different forms of bigotry. There are those – perhaps those who, like you, can’t actually follow the logic of an argument – who say “no, we are only going to do homophobia now”.

They are wrong. It is a political discussion to be had, of course. They’re entitled to say the only issue is homophobia; there are those like me who think that homophobia will rise as the ConDem cuts bite – in which case the issue isn’t just homophobia, it is economic alienation and suffering, for example.

As I said, that is a political discussion to be had. Asking why homophobia arises, in what material circumstances, is a good way to understand how to resolve it. To consider trying to bridge the divide between communities by working out what our common interests and problems are seems an incredibly sensible starting point.

Unlike your pretty transparent attempts at derailing any attempt to seriously discuss the issue by lying about me thinking the whole thing is an EDL issue.

Which I don’t. But you have proved not only incapable of reading what I say, you then prove yourself incapable of honestly enquiring as to what I mean, and then you prove that even when you quote what I say, you make sure to remove any context.

People might disagree with me, and that’s fine. But at least I’ve attempted to discuss the issue; you, however, have seen fit only to try to lie about people you disagree with.

I would say it’s been fun, but people like you are one of the reasons why political discourse has become so thoroughly debased over recent years. Your motives are transparent.

You won’t be getting a further response from me; go elsewhere if you want to lie about people.

tony collinsQuote text Reply
Omar on 2 March, 2011 at 10:33 pm said:

“The person I saw putting up one of these stickers in Whitechapel last September was a fashionably dressed twenty-something Anglo-Asian man.About 5 foot 10.”

If you’ve seen some of the EDL march/riot footage you will have noticed that there were a few amongst their number that could fit this description.

OmarQuote text Reply
Anatlus on 3 March, 2011 at 1:24 am said:

Since November Eerie posters have been put up everywhere, ‘Gay free zone’ oh please that just looks like a petty political stunt. no one takes this seriously. How convenient. There is no evidence tha tnayone in tower hamlet was associated with this. This is as devious as was anny lynch’s behaviour which was islamphobic. Islamphobia and racism is the only descrimination going on in tower Hamlet asgaint the muslim community.

AnatlusQuote text Reply
Ray on 3 March, 2011 at 3:46 am said:

The question to ask is are homophobic attacks rising (which they are) and is this statistically higher in TH (which it isn’t)? Therefore it’s quite clear that singling out homophobia in TH because of its large Muslim community is all about scapegoating them and creating a racist backlash against Muslims. Everyone on the left should reject this attack on Muslims.

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=24103

It doesn’t help when Searchlight produces a report that blames Muslims, the victims of racism, for the rise of fascist extremism. During a climate of Tory attacks on multiculturalism and rising racism what were they thinking?

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=24081

RayQuote text Reply
Ray on 3 March, 2011 at 3:55 am said:

“…you ignored the obvious fact that homophobia is bigotry against LGBT people first and last, and treated it merely as a weapon to smear Muslims. You also, predictably, like Kevin Ovenden, ignored the role of ELM in providing the most striking local platform for homophobes. You’ve done that twice now, which speaks volumes about your priorities.”

Firstly, only an HP racist would be concern trolling about LGBT rights on SU while your rightwing Zionist chums attack LGBT’s in Israel and deny Arab LGBT’s any rights at all. As a gay man it offends me that you would use LGBT oppression to scapegoat Muslims and try to encourage sympathy for the thugs in the EDL. Please take your racist lies about the Muslim community in TH back to that Zionist cesspit HP.

RayQuote text Reply
essexpikey on 3 March, 2011 at 10:59 am said:

Thank god I don’t live in Tower Hamlets any more, I just visit family and friends there and that’s enough. What Ovendon and Collins don’t seem to be able to do is actually look at what is happening as opposed to what they want to be happening.

Gay free zone posters have gone up in Tower Hamlets. A fact that cannot be disputed no matter how much spin is put on it.

They have either been put up as part of a false flag operation by the EDL or Islamophobic elements in the Labour Party, as is claimed above, or they have been put up by local Muslim extremists. I don’t think that one takes too much working out.

The list of homophobic speakers at the ELM an MC is too long to go into here but everyone knows that they have been there either in person or by video link up.

It is obvious that if the Mosque permits homophobic ranting then this is going to have an effect on those who go to the Mosque particularly young men.

What is happening here is that those who were involved in the failed Respect project which, stirred up racial hatred, are now attaching themselves to the campaign to blame everyone from Cameron, Searchlight,Johaan Hari and just about everyone else who say that maybe if you expose young men to bigotry they will be affected by it, for the current bad press that Muslims are getting.

I went to school in Stepney with Muslims in the seventies and I am still in touch with some of them. They are as appalled as the rest of us at what is going on but dare not speak out for fear of phsical attacks.

essexpikeyQuote text Reply
history tells us things on 3 March, 2011 at 11:33 am said:

41,

Unbelievable, you turn what is understandable concern about homophobia in T/H into a rant about Zionism, etc. The moral contortions of much of the far left finding all sorts of apologia for behaviour which if carried out by any other group, individual, etc would be roundly condemned and a mass march organised, is sickening.

Why are you so keen to believe it was outside forces like the EDL who are putting up these viles posters, etc, people in the area have already identified some of the people who are doing it. Its a pernicious form of racism to believe people who have a different skin colour are not capable of appalling behaviour as if they are without fault.

Do you realise what your apologia sounds like to the non aligned readers of this blog, (of which bafflingly there are many as it gets lots of hits) they will think the far left is delusional and prepared to turn decades of progressive ideas and action on its head…

shocking…

history tells us thingsQuote text Reply
Howard Kirk on 3 March, 2011 at 12:36 pm said:

Look, I wouldn’t be concerned about the latest round of Rayfoolery. With regard to the Searchlight report, by all means feel free to argue with the scope, the findings or the methadology, but how dare they try to apprehend the truth, especially when they challenge his world view, which, not surprisingly, comes straight out of this week’s Socialist Worker. Having said that, the HP posters on here have their own blindspots and the same can equally apply especially when it comes to Israel.

That said, it’s quite clear that no one knows who produced and distributed the leaflets, so it’s a mistake to say for certain who has. The key is the response to this – Kevin makes a good point that there has been a response that has involved the whole community, but it has to be said that the speakers cited above who are associated with the EML are dodgy and would have little argument with the content of the stickers, only maybe the means the message has entered the public domain.

Howard KirkQuote text Reply
Vanya on 3 March, 2011 at 12:47 pm said:

If people are being attacked in various ways for their sexuality this should be combatted. Combatting it requires knowing the motives of those doing it. If some of those doing it are doing it because they are influenced by a religious faith or a particular interpretation thereof, then acknowledging that is legitimate.

What is not legitimate is to emphasise that particular aspect of the problem above other aspects and causes.

What would be the response of some people commenting here if someone was to suggest that there is a serious problem of racism with LGBT people because the EDL is “supporting” them against Muslims? I know I woulddn’t be impressed to say the least.

But bizzarely, when it is suggested here that there needs to be unity in the area between muslims and LGBT people, those making that suggestion come under criticism and attack.

VanyaQuote text Reply
Ray on 3 March, 2011 at 10:20 pm said:

Typical apologia for Islamophobia from HTUT and HK. Stop crying crocodile tears for LGBT’s – it convinces no one. Using the oppression of one group against another is the ploy of the EDL. Your hypocrisy is evident in the way you ignore the fact that TH has a low incidence of homophobic attacks compared to boroughs that are majority white. Most homophobic attacks are perpetuated by white people but you want to scapegoat Muslims. What a shocking example of bigotry.

RayQuote text Reply
johnj on 3 March, 2011 at 11:55 pm said:

Anne Lynch was telling the truth. I was there and saw it.

johnjQuote text Reply
Ray on 4 March, 2011 at 12:00 am said:

“The Chairs of Rainbow Hamlets LGBT Community Forum said:

“We condemn such activity and call on all communities to join forces against such extreme views. We also condemn those who use these incidents to create a moral panic and stoke up racist or Islamaphobic sentiment. At present the people responsible cannot be accurately determined, but it is clear that whoever is responsible, they do not represent any of the local communities and their sole purpose is to spread fear and mistrust. This we are determined to prevent them from doing.
We welcome the repudiation of these tactics from the Tower Hamlets Inter Faith Forum, London Muslim Centre and the Mayor of Tower Hamlets. We intend to work with partners to organise an event in May to coincide with the International Day Against Homophobia, and look forward to inviting the Mayor, the Borough Commander and all communities of the borough to participate.””

http://www.onesocietymanycultures.org/2011/02/mayor-of-tower-hamlets-and-community-leaders-come-together-to-condemn-homophobia/

RayQuote text Reply
Ray on 4 March, 2011 at 12:05 am said:

EDL sympathisers involved in trying to hold a so-called “east end gay pride”. The EDL were too afraid to come to TH in the past so now they’re trying to use homophobia as an excuse. Despicable.

http://lattelabour.blogspot.com/2011/03/east-end-gay-pride-update.html

RayQuote text Reply
Marina on 4 March, 2011 at 1:13 am said:

“Islamphobia and racism is the only descrimination going on in tower Hamlet asgaint the muslim community.”

Of course. And the discrimination going on against the LGBT community is homophobia. and ELM has a track record of hosting vocally homophobic speakers. A disgusting and pertinent fact that Ray, Kevin and others refuse even to acknowledge, let alone address.

MarinaQuote text Reply
Harsanyi_Janos on 4 March, 2011 at 1:33 am said:

“Your hypocrisy is evident in the way you ignore the fact that TH has a low incidence of homophobic attacks compared to boroughs that are majority white. ”

The relevant statistic is not absolute incidence of homophobic attacks, but rather homophobic attacks per LGBT person. The reason is that LGBT persons are not likely to be randomly distributed across boroughs. Perhaps though these statics aren’t available — it is important to keep this cavaet in mind though.

Harsanyi_JanosQuote text Reply
Sarah AB on 4 March, 2011 at 5:36 am said:

Ray – if evidence is revealed linking these posters securely to the EDL, rest assured I’ll post about that on HP before you can say ‘evil Zionist neo-con.’

It does *seem* at the moment that the posters are being put up by Islamists, and I agree with most of what harlequin says – though obviously it’s important to be aware of the fact that the EDL would be delighted if this led to more Islamophobia – and also to note that this is the work of a few, and that the Association of British Muslims, for example, has spoken out against the posters. Don’t think the ELM has though.

Sarah ABQuote text Reply
Google on 4 March, 2011 at 7:57 am said:

Sarah AB #52: If you are going to say something on the subject, why not spend 5 seconds to check your facts?

Pink News 17 February 2011
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/02/17/east-london-mosque-and-mayor-condemn-anti-gay-stickers/

East London Mosque and mayor condemn anti-gay stickers

Dilwar Khan, director of the East London Mosque and the London Muslim Centre, said: “We stand together with our fellow citizens against all forms of hatred, including homophobia. “We are committed to building strong and cohesive communities in Tower Hamlets, and our strength is that we will not let incidents of hate divide us.”

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12526820
…Religious groups, including the Muslim Council of Britain and the East London Mosque, have been quick to condemn the stickers….

GoogleQuote text Reply
Andy Newman on 4 March, 2011 at 8:18 am said:

Inceidently. I hear that Wednesday’s meeting of the SERTUC exex heard from LGBT activists who did give credibility to the beleif that the stickers in East London were some sort of “false flag” operation to whip up Islamophobia.

Andy NewmanQuote text Reply
Omar on 4 March, 2011 at 9:41 am said:

#53
Excellent riposte! Just shows how HP-ers formulate their arguments based on repeating a lie until it becomes “the truth.”

OmarQuote text Reply
BrokenWindow on 4 March, 2011 at 10:00 am said:

54#

‘False flag operation?’ Who’s been listening to
the 9/11 and 7/7 conspiracy theories?

BrokenWindowQuote text Reply
Marina on 4 March, 2011 at 10:15 am said:

“Dilwar Khan, director of the East London Mosque and the London Muslim Centre, said: “We stand together with our fellow citizens against all forms of hatred, including homophobia.”

So why has ELM hosted a stream of homophobic hate preachers in recent years? The real test of ELM’s commitment would be to stop hosting such preachers.

MarinaQuote text Reply
Rachel on 4 March, 2011 at 10:41 am said:

What exactly is the lie Omar? All Sarah said was that she didn’t think the ELM had condemned the stickers – then she was corrected.

Are you saying that’s it’s now a fact that the stickers were put up in an Islamophobic ‘black ops’ campaign? Wow.

I don’t know one way or another. But I agree with the poster above who said that ‘Its a pernicious form of racism to believe people who have a different skin colour are not capable of appalling behaviour.’

Tony Collins, Vanya, it’s absurd to call for ‘alliances’ between ‘muslims and LGBT people’. Some gay people are vicious racists. Some Muslims are homophobic bigots (some of these preach at the ELM-but as I and others have said here many times, the ELM does not represent all Muslims – it is ONE mosque – relatively big, rich, powerful and reactionary – but it does not speak for all Muslims – Tower Hamlets Bengalis are generally far less conservative than Socialist Unity imagines, btw). Identity politics is in decline generally and even here in TH, thank god, despite the efforts of Respect. People can make alliances and create solidarity when they have common interests and come together in a struggle, but they do not simply act as a monolithic bloc, and ‘unite’ as Muslims, women, gays, Black people, Jews, etc.

I have no wish to defend the Labour party and don’t have any knowledge or opinion about what happened at the Council meeting, I know my anti-Respect stance has been taken here as an expression of support for Labour, but it isn’t. I do loathe Respect more I guess, because it was meant to stand for something better.

The real question for me is not to do with these accusations flying around about homophobia/anti-seminism/Islamophobia – the real question is what the hell happened to Carole Swords. An excellent campaigner and working class fighter is now reduced to helping to force through cuts on one of the poorest areas in the country, when she’s not promoting anti-’zionist’ conspiracy theories on facebook.

Another reason I can’t forgive Respect.

RachelQuote text Reply
Anonymous on 4 March, 2011 at 11:26 am said:

‘An excellent campaigner and working class fighter is now reduced to helping to force through cuts on one of the poorest areas in the country…’

What’s the basis for this?

AnonymousQuote text Reply
Rachel on 4 March, 2011 at 11:37 am said:

Well for example in yesterday’s Advertiser there’s a letter from the Respect Councillor complaining that Labour is delaying in setting the budget, when they should be working with the Mayor and his team.

He writes, “Unfortunately we cannot set a deficit budget, which would be illegal and would mean handing over the budget to unelected officials”.

I’ve been impressed recently with the Wisconsin democrats who went into hiding rather than participate in the injustice of Governor Walker’s legislation. The Carole I remember was at least as brave as a Wisconsin democrat!

RachelQuote text Reply
tony collins on 4 March, 2011 at 11:47 am said:

it’s absurd to call for ‘alliances’ between ‘muslims and LGBT people’. Some gay people are vicious racists. Some Muslims are homophobic bigots

God, Rachel, I hadn’t thought of that. See, I was calling for every single gay man and woman to make an alliance with every single Muslim.

It hadn’t occurred to me that there might be different strands of opinion. Sidestepped a landmine there!

Another reason I can’t forgive Respect.

Oh don’t be bashful, Rachel! I know how much you supported Respect in the past and how there was just a minor falling out. Or… no, it wasn’t you who I’ve seen posting nothing but attacks on everything Respect has done, and focussing relentlessly on Islamism.

Another reason I can’t forgive the internet, I suppose. Why do you let me down so, DARPA?

tony collinsQuote text Reply
Omar on 4 March, 2011 at 1:29 pm said:

Rachel,do not try to minimise the attempt to smear the ELM (and by implication,it’s many members) by dismissing this “oversight” as a mistake. A serious accusation was made that was proven false on a public forum. Unfortunately you and your ilk lack the ability to reflect upon the consequences of your Islamophobic agenda, so used to trotting out lazy stereotypes and emotive buzzwords.
It is the anti-Muslim, pseudo-progressives that have helped create an environment for the mainstreaming of what was previously the domain of the far-Right. Since the ramping up of hostility against Muslims in the wake of 9/11, many in that community have retreated further inward.

You and your mates would rather continue to attack local Muslims with spurious claims than actually protest the fact, for instance, that many innocent Muslims are being blown to bits at the hands of your government. Do you not see how this scenario can only aid the more reactionary elements in the Muslim community?

OmarQuote text Reply
Richard on 4 March, 2011 at 2:47 pm said:

This is just more evidence that multi culturalism has utterly failed.

From what I can see of Tower Hamlets council and mayor I regret every single penny of my council tax that I pay into this crazy local government which doesn’t represent me at all or provide any services I can use apart from street lighting and refuse collection.

I’m selling up and leaving Tower Hamlets which has become an unpleasant ghetto.

See you, suckers!

RichardQuote text Reply
Richard on 4 March, 2011 at 3:47 pm said:

I’ll add to that that this once great country is financially and socially bankrupt, borrowing millions of pounds every day from the much more succesful Chinese and Indian nations and cultures just to keep afloat let alone start paying billions of pounds of wasted money BACK.

All you crazy local government people can do is argue about who is the most victimized and discriminated against, homosexuals or muslims. Poor little victoms. Now wake up to the fact that you are British people and the country is in a time of national crisis and decline! You can take it from me that Chinese people aren’t worrying about whether they are gay or muslim, they are just getting on serving their country and making the future theirs while we are creating ghettos and burning hard earned money on weird political schemes instead of economically productive projects.

You should know that the vast majority of British people are fed up with all you nut cases and your crazy political ideologies promises to spend more BORROWED money which are NOT in the national interest and always involve taking as much money as you can from other people and then spending it on crazy things that do not serve the interests of the very people paying the bill!

Just to give you one example – taxes in more economically succesful parts of the world are MUCH lower than here, government in RUSSIA is 20% of GDP, in Britain it is nearly 60%! We are living in an almost communist economy now with living standards declining and a total lack of national identity.

SORT IT OUT

RichardQuote text Reply
Richard on 4 March, 2011 at 3:57 pm said:

Oh and one more thing to burst your little bubble – we will need to REDEFINE the political spectrum to make it a little more modern and consistent with the lead that the MUCH MORE SUCCESFUL emerging market Asian CAPITALIST economies are providing.

In China, South Korea, Singapore, Vietnam, etc. -
What you call left wing is extreme socialism or just indescribable.
What you call centre ground is very left wing.
What you call right wing is somewhat left wing.
What you call extreme right wing is accepted COMMON SENSE.

Right now British culture and political ideology CANNOT compete with the new Asian capitalism until there is a pretty radical cultural and conceptual shift to return us to a proper dynamic competitive market economy and proper national identity.

RichardQuote text Reply
The Undertaker on 4 March, 2011 at 4:13 pm said:

65# Thankfully tomorrow doesn’t belong to you ,scratch a nazi find a tory

The UndertakerQuote text Reply
vildechaye on 4 March, 2011 at 4:15 pm said:

RE: many innocent Muslims are being blown to bits at the hands of your government.

Of course, exponentially many more innocent Muslims are being blown to bits at the hands of their fellow not-so-innocent Muslims, but apparently that doesn’t seem to bother Omar nearly as much, if at all.

vildechayeQuote text Reply
Attila on 4 March, 2011 at 4:20 pm said:

China has nationalised banks, nationalised land and a militant labour movement.

In India almost a hundred and ninety thousand farmers have committed suicide since the free market reforms were introduced in 1991 having been driven off the land by agribusiness. There is a Maoist insurgency across half of rural India.

UK state spending as a percentage of GDP is 44.84% It was 39.75% in 2008 until the state had to step in and bail out the City because of the mess the capitalists had made.

But don’t let reality get in the way of your right wing rant.

AttilaQuote text Reply
The Undertaker on 4 March, 2011 at 4:27 pm said:

What is it with these nazi’s it seems the revolutions in the Middle East have sent them into a frenzy what with all those Muslims demanding freedom and Democracy and an end to dictatorship ,ah so let’s have ago at TH.
If you are really leaving the borough #63 Herr Richard may I be the first to say Fuck off and good riddance

The UndertakerQuote text Reply
Rachel on 4 March, 2011 at 4:29 pm said:

Omar, what the hell are you talking about? Get a grip. You’re free associating now.

RachelQuote text Reply
Richard on 4 March, 2011 at 4:37 pm said:

Regarding the level of UK govt spending, it depends on your definition of govt spending. A more conservative definition than I used puts it at about 53-54% of GDP.
Regardless whether it is 40% or 60% it is insanely high. At the height of the British economy (relative to the rest of the world) in the 19th century British government spending could even have been single digits!
I know a lot of Chinese and Hong Kong entrepreneurs and investors and it is a common view (and joke) there that the UK has forgotten its capitalist roots and now needs to learn from Asia. Admittedly some aspects of China still very communist, not Shanghai!
Regardless, these economies are growing incredibly fast, producing billions of dollars of surplus cash, and set to dominate the world economy in years.

I agree with you that the banking system was/is an expensive mess but I think in the wider context of insane government spending in the UK it ends up being a small part – partly because the government is printing money, although that is of course disastrous in other ways.

By the way, the fact that the UK govt is having to print money to pay bills is a very clear sign how crazy things got – we risk hyper inflation like Weimar Germany. How did a country that won the second world war bankrupt itself in a time of peace and plenty? Incredible political mismanagement.

yes I am ranting. I’ve been politically inactive most of my life but now I’ve come to the conclusion things are so politically misguided and dangerous in this country that it’s necessary to wake up or emigrate. Many educated British people I’m talking to have the same opinion, people who were never into politics. Many of my American friends (suffering similar problems) are shocked when I show them some of the things that have been going on in England.

RichardQuote text Reply
Richard on 4 March, 2011 at 4:45 pm said:

Undertaker, perhaps you’d like to explain what you think a Nazi is, since you seem to be an expert on Nazism?

I’m glad you support the changes of govt in various parts of the world.

Right now my interest is more in the UK govt. Some people might feel England (Europe!) need a similar revolution to the Middle East. After all, we are run by a largely unelected political, financial and social elite in a political culture that is anti-freedom, anti-free speech, and exercises intolerant moral tyranny. And clearly the country is being run against its self-interest – that’s sounding rather like some middle eastern countries..

By the way, those middle eastern countries mostly aren’t in grave debt, are growing on average 5%, and producing lots of cash. Egypt has similar youth unemployment to the UK, similar unemployment generally, religious terroism, but is not in economic stagnation, unlike the UK. Maybe Egpyt is a test case for the UK?

RichardQuote text Reply
Omar on 4 March, 2011 at 4:53 pm said:

#63
No, I’m afraid you’ve just got the blinkers on. As I said, you are so hell-bent on attacking supposed creeping Islamism that you actually strenghthen what you claim to oppose.

#67
Of course you miss the glaringly obvious fact that if it wasn’t for the British and American military presence (not to mention their support for oppressive regimes) there would be considerably fewer innocent Muslims dying at all.

OmarQuote text Reply
vildechaye on 4 March, 2011 at 5:01 pm said:

#73: RE: No, I’m afraid you’ve just got the blinkers on. As I said, you are so hell-bent on attacking supposed creeping Islamism that you actually strenghthen what you claim to oppose.

Nothing in the above addresses, takes issue with or even has anything to do with what I posted, which was that you only discuss supposed UK violence against Muslims and ignore much more prevalent muslim-on-muslim violence. But hey, thanks for the great illustration of how you deal with actual points that disturb your complacent and twisted worldview.

vildechayeQuote text Reply
Omar on 4 March, 2011 at 5:25 pm said:

Look at the #’s next to the responses,you twit.

OmarQuote text Reply
Attila on 4 March, 2011 at 5:25 pm said:

It makes perfect sense to condemn killings that our government is responsible for even if there are worse things going on elsewhere.

When Omar says “Of course you miss the glaringly obvious fact that if it wasn’t for the British and American military presence (not to mention their support for oppressive regimes) there would be considerably fewer innocent Muslims dying at all” he’s absolutely right. The fact that you can’t or won’t acknowledge this speaks volumes about your concern for innocent Muslims.

AttilaQuote text Reply
Sarah AB on 4 March, 2011 at 5:43 pm said:

I apologise for the mistake WRT the ELM, and I think it’s good they issued that statement, although I still think they’ve hosted some unpleasant speakers.

Sarah ABQuote text Reply
Omar on 4 March, 2011 at 5:50 pm said:

Cheers, Attila. Ultimately all that really matters for these types is to grab the nearest available stick to beat Muslims with, whether trying to pin a homophobic campaign on one of the largest Muslim institutions in London (who have already publicly condemned it) or engaging in diversionary whattaboutery with fake concern about “Muslim-on-Muslim” violence. The thing is if TH Labour keeps listening to these wing-nuts they’re likely to lose more elections on top of the two in a row they’ve already lost.

OmarQuote text Reply
ringelblum on 4 March, 2011 at 5:52 pm said:

“Ultimately all that really matters for these types is to grab the nearest available stick to beat Muslims with, whether trying to pin a homophobic campaign on one of the largest Muslim institutions in London”

Disgusting apologia for the Islamist far-right. I bet this bloke claims to be left-wing as well.

ringelblumQuote text Reply
Omar on 4 March, 2011 at 6:30 pm said:

Yes, this bloke is left-wing. And those who claim to be from the “secular”-left don’t seem to realise how their obsession with Muslims is causing them to share common cause with the EDL and BNP. I’d argue that it has been these would-be leftists and Eustonites who’ve helped to normalise what was once the only voiced by the far-Right.

OmarQuote text Reply
Rachel on 4 March, 2011 at 6:51 pm said:

Could you please stop with ‘these types’, ‘your ilk’, ‘your Islamophobic agenda’ etc if it’s directed at me. Nothing I’ve said supports the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan-how the hell do you get on to this?. I have probably opposed the war in every way that you have i.e. not very effectively, through leafletting, demonstrations, marches – what on earth makes you think I am silent about this? you know nothing about me, and I haven’t ever said any of the things you attribute to me, I haven’t tried to pin anything on the ELM, I haven’t expressed concerns about creeping Islamism or any of that garbage.

This thread is about an article about accusations of Islamophobia directed against people who made accusations of homophobia. When TH Respect appears on this blog, it is almost always because someone who disagrees with them is being accused of Islamophobia. As I said, I have no real knowledge or opinion about the events that led to this but I am dubious about this type of politics.

Obsession with Muslims? No, my interest is and has always been in trying to understand how parts of the left became so crap.

The Respect councillor in TH is openly endorsing a budget which will mean hundreds of job losses and cuts to the most crucial services. In Birmingham, Salma is, not surprisingly, calling for opposition to the cuts. But in Tower Hamlets? Just wheeling out Carole to defend the indefensible.

RachelQuote text Reply
Darkness at Noon on 4 March, 2011 at 6:54 pm said:

@Rachel

“Could you please stop with ‘these types’, ‘your ilk’, ‘your Islamophobic agenda’ etc if it’s directed at me.”

That’s how people argue here Rachel.

Darkness at NoonQuote text Reply
tony collins on 4 March, 2011 at 6:54 pm said:

It’s ok Rachel, I’m here to tell you that “how parts of the left became so crap” is actually a very boring interest, made much more boring by it being the only damned thing you ever post on the internet about.

But given your profession that you can’t “forgive” Respect for whatever it did or didn’t do, you don’t need to say another thing: Respect isn’t after your forgiveness. It’s ok!

You can let it go now, Rachel. Perhaps you can now go and fight the cuts. It’ll be a much better use of your time than the amount you spend detailing the failings of people you were never going to support anyway.

tony collinsQuote text Reply
Marina on 4 March, 2011 at 10:22 pm said:

@ Omar,

“do not try to minimise the attempt to smear the ELM”

Why is neither you nor anyone else on this thread has addressed the fact of ELM’s disgraceful record of hosting homophobic speakers.

You can’t can, you? It is shameful.

MarinaQuote text Reply
John Gray on 4 March, 2011 at 10:27 pm said:

Andy

Anna Lynch is a decent, honest and hard working local Councillor, a NHS nurse working in a terminally ill hospital ward and UNISON member.

She would not tell lies. Full stop. Shame on anyone who questions this.

John GrayQuote text Reply
vildechaye on 4 March, 2011 at 11:21 pm said:

RE: The fact that you can’t or won’t acknowledge this speaks volumes about your concern for innocent Muslims.

I would say, rather, that the fact that you blame the deaths of innocent Muslims killed by other not-so-innocent Muslims on “the West” speaks greater volumes about your own concern for innocent Muslims. When a Jihadi blows up a Muslim funeral, it must be very handy for you to blame it on the U.S. or UK. But anybody sensible, not to mention any court of law, would know where the real blame lies.

vildechayeQuote text Reply
Omar on 4 March, 2011 at 11:34 pm said:

#84
I cannot speak for the ELM. Perhaps they need to vet their invitation list more thoroughly if it is in fact the case that they are promoting homophobia. Perhaps those who are concerned should have a sit-down with them? And based on Kevin and Andy’s posts, there are plenty of LGBT activists who have no beef with the ELM. And they have been unequivocal in ther condemnation of the sticker campaign. Incidentally ,according to Islamaphobia Watch, homophobic crime is falling year on year in East London with an increase of only 2 more on last year in TH, not the epidemic some would have you believe:

http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/islamophobia-watch/2011/2/28/are-muslims-responsible-for-a-huge-rise-in-homophobic-attack.html

OmarQuote text Reply
Robert on 4 March, 2011 at 11:37 pm said:

Except that’s not what I said. But carry on lying. It’s all Harrys Place trolls know how to do.

RobertQuote text Reply
Vanya on 5 March, 2011 at 1:56 am said:

#85 ‘Shame on anyone who questions this.’

So do you have the cv of every one of the people who were there and deny what she says, so you can determine that they are less worthy of belief?

It’s one thing to take the view that you can vouch for someone’s honesty, but quite another to suggest that everyone else has to because of your recommendation.

VanyaQuote text Reply
Johny ordinary on 5 March, 2011 at 2:40 am said:

The pro islamists writing here need to recognize that their support for the religious freedoms of the radical elements is not ballanced by the radical elements tolerence of anyone else who does not fit their mould.Tower hamlets is a wonderful illustration of sheep keeping a pet wolf ie naieve socialists who honestly, but deludedly , believe that everyone can get along,regardless of years of indoctrinated faith(which activey seeks to threaten its followers with intimidation and death ,fire and brimstone ,and no 70 virgins)
To fool yourself into believing that these manufactured maniacs could happily co exist with gays,christians,jews or atheists ,and put their faith to the back shelf when dealing with the world shows the world the depth of your stupidity.
England has sleepwalked down the road towards multiculturalizm, without realising it has moved out of the green fields, and into the ghettos.Tower hamlets is a big muslim ghetto,where the snake you keep as a pet waits for the opportunity to strike.
The government needs to act decicively in areas like this to boot out the hate preachers, so that ordinary muslims can get on with their lives without a sharia breathing dragon peering over their shoulder all the time.

Johny ordinaryQuote text Reply
vildechaye on 5 March, 2011 at 5:46 am said:

RE: Except that’s not what I said. But carry on lying. It’s all Harrys Place trolls know how to do.

Well, what did you say. That I wouldn’t “acknowledge” that Western support intervention in Muslim countries and support for oppressive regimes is responsible for deaths? I did acknowledege it; it’s you and Omar who refuse to acknowledge that given all that, it’s still a fact that radical Muslims kill FAR MORE muslims than Western countries or anybody else. And buddy, before you get on your illusory moral high horse again, based on nothing more than your own narcissism, I would say that I have far more concern for innocent Muslims than you appear to have to homosexuals threatened by Islamist homophobia.
But hey, you don’t have to worry about that, just call me an HP troll, and feel even better about yourself.
Pathetic.

vildechayeQuote text Reply
tony collins on 5 March, 2011 at 8:57 am said:

#89 (5/3/11 02.40) – Sheep, wolves, snakes, dragons – when did this site become all about fantasy role-playing games.

Sociality Unity? NERDALIST NERDITY MORE LIKE.

tony collinsQuote text Reply
Johny Ordinary on 5 March, 2011 at 11:04 am said:

This site has obviously always been about fantasy, the fantasy that student brand socialism will ever work. By the way, the word metaphor is quite readily available in the dictionary.

Johny OrdinaryQuote text Reply
tony collins on 5 March, 2011 at 12:04 pm said:

It’s very close to the word “mixed”, I believe.

tony collinsQuote text Reply
Bangla Bhai on 5 March, 2011 at 3:59 pm said:

http://wn.com/East_London_Mosque,_Spot_the_Fag

A charming lecture in the East London Mosque by Abdul Karim Hattin entitled ‘Spot the Fag’.

brothers, is da faggot Elton John? asks this religious speakers. The brothers hands go up to identify da faggot.

Really classy……..

Of course this must be one of those famous ‘black ops’ we hear about…..

Bangla BhaiQuote text Reply
Bangla Bhai on 5 March, 2011 at 4:00 pm said:

http://wn.com/East_London_Mosque,_Spot_the_Fag

A charming lecture in the East London Mosque by Abdul Karim Hattin entitled ‘Spot the Fag’.

brothers, is da faggot Elton John? asks this religious speaker. The brothers hands go up to identify da faggot.

Really classy……..

Of course this must be one of those famous ‘black ops’ we hear about…..

Bangla BhaiQuote text Reply
Anne on 5 March, 2011 at 9:06 pm said:

why don’t you go live in a sharia country?

AnneQuote text Reply
Carole Swords on 5 March, 2011 at 11:45 pm said:

“I do loathe Respect more”

My goodness Rachel very strong words?

More than the Tories or perhaps Nu Labour?

Perhaps you should explain the something better?

So to stand for Jobs homes Peace Justice and Equality and against the cuts are not what we stand for perhaps you should stop the loathe and look at the facts.

“The real question is what the hell happened to Carole Swords.”

Well I am here my dear
perhaps you may have seen me in Parliament lobbing the MP about the impending cuts
Oh and what about the DCH lobby of Parliament against housing benefit cuts
Or better still my petitions into the council and the many other campaigns that I have been involved in past present and now
in fact i had a very successful petition handed in to the council on the cutting and closure of children’s services and sure starts a few thousand signatures and a excellent result that we won and saved sure start centres
And what about the Day X for NHS oh is that my Facebook page YES
and perhaps winning another councillor in a supposed safe Labour seat oh and yes on question time in Barking and giving the panel a hard time and what about the work against the dodgy cleaning company and PSC events also helping with the Stop the War demos stewarding my dear where have you been!

But for your information My dear i have had several petitions Also i managed a petition of thousands objecting to the closure and the cuts

Also for your information do not have an agenda that swings with the Mayor and in fact during the mayoral campaign i was in GAZA but you seem also to have a problem with my facebook page and comment on anti-’zionist’ conspiracy theories on my page my dear perhaps you need to go to Gaza and see it is hell on earth and I put on my page what I truly believe like I have always done

I am not wheeled out and I do not follow the leader we at Respect sit down and discuss things unlike some of the l parties who are told How they should think! and what they should do
my dear we listen to what the majority want and go with that ….

Now bact to the post with these accusations flying around about homophobia/anti-seminism/Islamophobia -
Yes that is what they are and I know how they work accusations

We have had two meetings since the so called event and I know what it is like to be on the other side of the Labour administration in the town hall because they do not like people to tell them facts and truth from the public gallery they do what they always do and get the public out by hook of by crook i am still not allowed to go to council meetings until i grovel and that i will never do
so the the real question is what the hell happened to Carole Swords

As you see I am still campaigning not because I am a Bloody working CLASS HERO do what is right
I am now the chair for TH respect
and I am treated with the utmost Respect from all the membership unlike some I can mention who thought that all I was for was to empty the bins

And I am NO WAY helping to force through cuts on one of the poorest areas in the country, I have always fought for My Borough which i love and am proud of living here this i done long long before Respect came along so i have never needed anyone to paint my wagon

For your information our amendments on the budget has been accepted from the council and it was one that so far was the best on the table

We have to tread carefully as we know the cuts will be made but we will continue to fight for front line services we know it is inevitable but the biggest concern for the residents of TH is if the government come in AND THEY WILL if we cannot agree on a package that keeps as many in there jobs as they can rip us apart and then we know the most venerable will suffer the most

But as far as I am aware the budget was decided at the last meeting and there are only a few amendment’s that need to be ironed out and the Labour party voted for this

The meeting to decide is next week and we will see what happens then–

Carole SwordsQuote text Reply
Anonymous on 6 March, 2011 at 7:01 am said:

Carole, From afar, I know you do a tremendous job in your borough for Respect and multiple culturalism and my offer of continual support is still there for yourself and Tower Hamlets Respect.

AnonymousQuote text Reply
Anonymous on 6 March, 2011 at 10:26 am said:

Did RESPECT councillors vote for cuts and support the ‘dented shield’ strategy?

AnonymousQuote text Reply
Rachel on 6 March, 2011 at 11:56 am said:

Carole, you were great on Question Time.

Glad to hear about the Sure Start petition etc. I’m sure you are still active, much more active than me. But I wish you were still in opposition to those in power in local government, not aligned with them.

RachelQuote text Reply
Marina on 6 March, 2011 at 12:25 pm said:

Carole,

why do you and Respect ally yourselves with the ELM, which has hosted numerous homophobic and antisemitic hate preachers in recent years?

If you truly are sincere in your opposition to ALL bigotry, no matter where it comes from, then you should condemn ELM loud, clear and unequivocally for this.

MarinaQuote text Reply
LBTH on 6 March, 2011 at 4:26 pm said:

Clicked on the Labour List/Rachel Sanders’ link to her article. If you check it, it says ‘This article has been removed at the author’s request’.

LBTHQuote text Reply
Omar on 6 March, 2011 at 4:41 pm said:

#103
LOL!

OmarQuote text Reply
LBTH on 6 March, 2011 at 9:53 pm said:

# 85 ‘Shame on anyone who questions this.’

‘Shame on anyone’? Even if we were there?

Thank you Vanya (#89) for defending us.

LBTHQuote text Reply
Andy Newman on 6 March, 2011 at 10:19 pm said:

interesting how this story has grown in the telling.

Andrew Gilligan has jumped on cllr rachel Saunder’s article, and used it as ammunition to attack Lutfur rahman. remember that gilligan’s Islamophobic aganda is also linked to his campiagn against ken Livingstone

then Christopher Brocklebank writing for Pink news, relies upon Gilligan to repeat as fact:
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/03/04/homophobic-hatred-growing-in-lutfur-rahmans-east-london-council-chambers/

Councillors in the East London borough of Tower Hamlets say that the public gallery in the council chamber is becoming increasingly filled with supporters of Mayor Lutfur Rahman, who are shouting homophobic abuse.

Gilligan amusingly writes:

Lutfur’s supporters’ response is desperate, even by their standards. The Dave Spart parody website, Socialist Unity, quotes someone who wasn’t there denying the account of three witnesses who were there, and claims the whole thing is an Islamophobic plot!

What an idiot he is. I quote two people who were there, Mahbub Alam (Mamun) and Councillor Fozol Miah; and I further note that council officers who were there, including the Assistant Chief Executive of Legal Services, do not corroboate councillor Lynch’s story.

Andy NewmanQuote text Reply
Ray on 7 March, 2011 at 4:16 am said:

“If you truly are sincere in your opposition to ALL bigotry, no matter where it comes from, then you should condemn ELM loud, clear and unequivocally for this.”

Let’s play the “condemn” game. When are you going to condemn Johann Hari’s Islamophobia? Or is it acceptable for a gay man to lie about Muslims just to encourage hatred towards them? When will you condemn the few LGBT bigots who are attempting to scapegoat Muslims?

But more importantly when will you support the majority of LGBT’s, the organisations that represent LGBT’s in Tower Hamlets, who reject the racist bigotry and Islamophobia you are trying to cultivate? Are you so arrogant as to ignore the wishes of LGBT’s in Tower Hamlets just to pursue your own racist vendetta against Muslims or will you stop concern trolling and respect the decision of the LGBT community in Tower Hamlets not to join in with racist scapegoating?

Let’s see who you really support.

RayQuote text Reply
Kevin Ovenden on 7 March, 2011 at 11:11 am said:

This http://lattelabour.blogspot.com/2011/03/east-end-gay-pride-update.html is a very useful contribution.

Kevin OvendenQuote text Reply
Marina on 7 March, 2011 at 11:36 am said:

I asked Carole Sword, an elected Councillor, to answer a perfectly reasonable. question concerning a local institution that has hosted a large number of homphobic hate preachers.

Your hysterical response, among other things, didn’t even address my factual point, and called me a racist. You are beneath contempt. And unless you are Carole Swords herself, your childish rant is utterly irrelevant.

MarinaQuote text Reply
Kevin Ovenden on 7 March, 2011 at 11:47 am said:

@109 Carole Swords is, unfortunately, not an elected councillor. This total ignorance of the matters you are frothing about is one of the things that makes your trolling “utterly irrelevant”.

Kevin OvendenQuote text Reply
Rachel on 7 March, 2011 at 11:54 am said:

Marina, Carole isn’t an elected councillor, but she is the Respect chair. And don’t worry, anyone who disagrees with Respect is sooner or later called a racist on this blog. It’s how they argue.

RachelQuote text Reply
Rachel on 7 March, 2011 at 12:24 pm said:

Though I notice that Carole herself doesn’t tend to do this so much, though it does occur in Respect party statements.

RachelQuote text Reply
Marina on 7 March, 2011 at 2:06 pm said:

Kevin,

fine, but she is still a representative of a local political party. It makes no substantive difference regarding Respect’s position on this.

On a thread about homophobia – real or imagined – in Tower Hamlets, asking why a local institution like ELM gets a free ride from Respect and others for its hosting of homophobic preachers is not trolling, it is perfectly legitimate. It’s the elephant in the living room here.

I see neither you, Kevin, nor Ray, nor any other apologists for ELM, can even bring yourself to acknowledge ELM’s record of hosting such preachers. That tells us plenty about who is ‘trolling’. From your evasion, this appears to be Respect’s line: ‘don’t even acknowledge that our partner ELM has hosted a number of homophobes.’

If that’s not the case, then please address and comment on specifically ELM’s hosting of said preachers. If you won’t we’ll know Respect can’t be taken seriously on this matter, and that their denials regarding the supposed incident in the council chambers are of equally little value.

MarinaQuote text Reply
LBTH on 7 March, 2011 at 7:30 pm said:

As the Councillor Saunders article is cited above and is being used by Andrew Gilligan (#106), here is the (removed) article for reference:

Homophobia allegations overshadow Tower Hamlets budget meeting
By Rachael Saunders

So firstly, the good news. Tower Hamlets Labour Party had an extraordinary year last year, with some highs – winning both parliamentary seats and a massive council majority – and lows – losing the mayoral election and subsequent Spitalfields by election. This year, we’ve got back on our feet, launching a Training Academy for local members and getting out on the door step every week, alternating between local sessions and helping out in Thurrock where they have elections this year. This was all topped off by a great recent AGM for the local party, over 100 people attending, contested elections conducted in good humour and an excellent, diverse, united and committed EC elected for the year ahead.

The bad news is that homophobia has overshadowed Full Council meetings in Tower Hamlets.

The most recent meeting was our Budget meeting, on Wednesday. We were all aware of the magnitude of the task ahead of us, having to consider the £72 million of cuts imposed by the Conservative led government. Labour Group was ready to negotiate and compromise, to do all we could to improve the Independent Mayor’s budget proposals for the sake of the people of Tower Hamlets.

Part way through the meeting Cllr Anna Lynch told the Chair that she had heard someone shout “poofter” when Peter Golds, Conservative leader, who is openly gay, was speaking. Some people had already been evicted from the meeting for disruption by the chair of council, Motin Uz-Zaman. Motin tried to evict the person who had made this comment. An adjournment was called. Anna and Motin were both then threatened by members of the public in the gallery, with shouts that they would “get them”. Some of those involved in the fracas were amongst the Independent Mayor’s most prominent supporters. When the members of the public in question refused to leave Motin cleared the whole public gallery and we continued with our meeting with only the press, councillors and council officers present.

Councillors were told by police that the police would not act without the authorisation of the chief legal officer. If the police had got involved the people who had been homophobic and made threats could have been thrown out, leaving the rest of the public present. We will do more to find out why authorisation for police action was not given.

In the debate that followed, the Independent Mayor said absolutely nothing. When an anti cuts campaigner interrupted his speech earlier in the meeting he was furious, and demanded she be expelled. When homophobia was reported and the meeting was thrown into chaos and aggression, some on his side, including one of his cabinet members, questioned and denied the existence of homophobia in the room. He said nothing at all.

None of us came to the meeting on Wednesday wanting to talk about homophobia, or about the intimidation and bigotry that too often surrounds Tower Hamlets politics, but when someone shouts “poofter” as a part of a barrage of abuse directed at a gay individual, we have no choice. Labour members there to watch the meeting have since reported clear homophobic abuse from other parts of the public gallery. The Labour Group will continue to stand up against homophobia, bigotry and hatred. We hope that elected representatives all parties and none will stand with us.

Feb 27, 2011 at 03:32pm

LBTHQuote text Reply
Andy Newman on 7 March, 2011 at 7:46 pm said:

#114

Interesting that rachel saunders does not personaly corroborate Anne lynch’s story; and neither Anne lynch nor rachel Saunders corrorobate the allegations reported by Andew gilligan, who says that “a supporter of Lutfur rahman” with a distinctive voice allegedly shouted out “Mrs Gold” loudly every time the Tory leader spoke.

So the alleged serious incidents were only heard by some people. while other people in the same room heard nothing at all?

indeed one of the people who did not hear them was Tower Hamlets council’s chief legal officer Isabella Freeman, despite her being present throughout.

Now Rachel Saunders has retracted her own article. I wonder why?

Andy NewmanQuote text Reply
Ray on 7 March, 2011 at 8:14 pm said:

I’m not in Respect and Marina’s straw man about the ELM is “utterly irrelevant”. It’s like claiming that because some Christians are homophobic we should have nothing to do with any of them. Let’s be very, very clear here: Marina and Rachel are trying to justify Islamophobia because a few Muslims are homophobic. Replace “Muslim” with “Jew” and it’s quite obvious that this is akin to anti-Semitic scapegoating employed by racists in the 1930′s.

Anyone who is an anti-racist examines events not on just a local basis but as a national and international phenomenon. It’s evident internationally that Muslims are being scapegoated on a scale that Jews experienced in the 1930′s. The forces that are stoking up this scapegoating and have the most to gain from it are the vile racist and fascist thugs that persecuted and murdered Jews in the past.

As a socialist and gay man I know that LBGT’s were murdered in the concentration camps along with Jews. Therefore scapegoating Muslims plays into the hands of those who would like to murder me and the millions of LGBT’s across Europe. That’s why LGBT’s can’t afford to let our oppression be hijacked by Islamophobes like Marina and Rachel.

If you look at the so-called “East End Gay Pride” website they have a prominent pink union jack on the website. The only organisation that flaunts the union jack is the BNP. I don’t think this is just a coincidence.

RayQuote text Reply
Andy Newman on 7 March, 2011 at 8:42 pm said:

From the Facebook page of rainbow Tower hamlets, note the highlighted bits
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=121836957827291&v=wall

Local authority and community leaders condemn homophobia

Tower Hamlets community leaders come together to condemn homophobia Over the last weekend posters of a homophobic nature were identified and removed from four locations across the borough: The Brady Centre, Bow Church DLR, Sydney Street and Whitechapel Idea Store.

The …descriptions of these posters are similar to those that have been found in 2010 in the borough, and elsewhere in South West London and Nottingham. The posters have been reported to the Metropolitan Police, and the matter is being treated as a homophobic hate crime. All lines of enquiry are being pursued by police both within Tower Hamlets and London wide to identify and prosecute those responsible.

Following these incidents the Mayor of Tower Hamlets, alongside members of the Interfaith Forum and Rainbow Hamlets, have come together to condemn these messages of hate. Mayor Lutfur Rahman, Chair of Tower Hamlets Partnership said, “Tower Hamlets has a proud history of challenging prejudice and promoting equality. There is no place for hate in Tower Hamlets and we take a zero-tolerance approach to homophobia.

“Across all religions, partner organisations and community groups there is unanimity in the belief that by working together we can build a strong and cohesive community. There are many shared values that we can unite behind and all attempts by those at the fringes to sow the seeds of division and hatred will be rebuffed. I have personally met with the co-chairs of Rainbow Hamlets (Tower Hamlets Lesbian Gay Bisexual and Transgender Community Forum) and am committed to working with them and the wider community to promote equality.”

Reverend Alan Green, Chair of the Tower Hamlets Inter Faith Forum said, “People of faith in Tower Hamlets are proud to be part of this diverse and vibrant borough, in which mutual respect and tolerance are vital to social harmony. We oppose all who seek to undermine these values – homophobic hate has no place in Tower Hamlets. Whatever their backgrounds of the people they do not speak in the name of Islam, Christianity or the other religions represented here.”

Dilwar Khan, Director of the London Muslim Centre said, “We stand together with our fellow citizens against all forms of hatred, including homophobia. We are committed to building strong and cohesive communities in Tower Hamlets, and our strength is that we will not let incidents of hate divide us.”

The Chairs of Rainbow Hamlets LGBT Community Forum said, “We condemn such activity and call on all communities to join forces against such extreme views. We also condemn those who use these incidents to create a moral panic and stoke up racist or Islamaphobic sentiment. At present the people responsible cannot be accurately determined, but it is clear that whoever is responsible, they do not represent any of the local communities and their sole purpose is to spread fear and mistrust. This we are determined to prevent them from doing. We welcome the repudiation of these tactics from the Tower Hamlets Inter Faith Forum, London Muslim Centre and the Mayor of Tower Hamlets. We intend to work with partners to organise an event in May to coincide with the International Day Against Homophobia, and look forward to inviting the Mayor, the Borough Commander and all communities of the borough to participate.”

If any further homophobic posters are identified by the public, they are encouraged to report them to the Metropolitan police on 0033 123 1212. If possible, please take a photograph of the poster ensuring that you record the time and location. If the poster can be removed in one piece please do so, placing it in a box with the sticky side up and if possible take to your local police station. All these measures will help police investigations. To date there have been 10 reports of crimes in Tower Hamlets that have been identified as homophobic or transphobic this year. This compares with 74 in 2010.

We actively encourage people to report all incidents of hate crime as this enables us to pursue enforcement action and bring perpetrators to justice. -ENDS- ALL ENQUIRIES TO TOWER HAMLETS COMMS TEAM

Andy NewmanQuote text Reply
Andy Newman on 7 March, 2011 at 8:48 pm said:

Incidently, it is a dangerous game building up mythology about the allegedly homophobic views of Muslims.

I don’t for one moment subscribe to the idea that LGBT people are more inclined to islamophobia, and yet islamophobic comments are certaibly tolerated on LGBT message boards:

here is a sample of comments from Pink news

“Tower Hamlets council is lost to extremism – they are taking over as the indiginous people have voter apathy because politicians have lost touch with society.”

“U.K should be an Islam free zone. Oh wait it was. Oh and we were here first.”

“Islam, the religion of peace and tolerance. Blessing of the paedophile they call Muhammed upon us all.”

“Oh well, you let immigrants take over entire swathes of the city, what do you expect? You reap what you sow.”

“London is unfortunately not the safe place it once was for us …and it will only get worse as their numbers increase and their vile ideology and demonic book of hatred take root. This hatred is not something that can be eradicated or even tamed, as ‘apologists’ seem to naively think. Islam is locked in the 7th century, it has not reformed, accepted science or adapted as other regilions have.”

“Read the EDL website ‘mission statement’. Surprisingly, it’s actually quite hard to knock, as it openly stands up for gay, female, Jewish and other rights…. The Guardian just calls them Islamophobes and far-right nutters, but there’s very little that’s irrational in their statement. To be honest, it just epitomises all the failings of multiculturalism. It’s very easy to shout racist, but it’s ideology they are criticising, not skin colour or ethnic origin.”

“Nobody is advocating violence against Muslims. But we need a real debate on just how much freedom we give to Muslims to act on the teachings of the Koran.”

“I want to live in a Muslim Free Zone.”

“The word Islam translates as SUBMIT and yes islam is full of love and so cosy for us all, IF we repent and denounce who we are.”

“Why the refusal to comment and condemn the stickers from the muslim organisations.”

“I read ther the EDL were gay friendly as well.”

“Muslims in the uk believe lgbt people lead morally bereft lifestyles… some people have no grasp of what islam is about .it is a religion of bigotry that associates any non believers as satanic.”

“Perhaps we should ask Baroness Warsi to go and reason with them.”

“Face it folks. They hate us.”

“If Islam is so peaceful, why haven’t we heard any condemnation from the imams in the mosques up and down the country? Why the silence?”

“let’s face it, most muslims are homophobic and fanatic.”

“who is Allah? homophobic primitive child molesting pervert?”

“Islam belongs in the Middle East. It has no place in Europe and it is incompatible with our Western values.”

So if we were indulging in whatboutery, why haven’t marina and Rachel condemned these anti-Muslim comments?

the truth is that intollerance and prejudice are common among people of all religions and none, and across sexual orientations.

It is a disastrous strategy to seek to polarise the misunderstandings further; and the correct approach, as shown by mayor Lutfur rahman, and by Dilwar Khan, director of the East London Mosque, is to condemn all bigotry, and to seek to build bridges between communities.

The wrong approach as illustrated in this thread by rachel and marina, is to make out there is an inherent problem with one part of our community.

Andy NewmanQuote text Reply
Rachel on 7 March, 2011 at 9:33 pm said:

Andy, you are lying. When I have I done what you say I do?

RachelQuote text Reply
Rachel on 7 March, 2011 at 9:36 pm said:

Here’s the longer reply I was working on when I saw what Andy had written

Could you please note the different spellings: Rachel/Rachael.

@116 I also think the ‘East End Pride’ March and website look very dodgy. The pink union jack is a disturbing symbol which fits perfectly with the EDL project and I don’t think the fact that many of the people planning on going may be just naive is good enough. From what little I know of this event I would oppose it thoroughly.

But Ray, let’s be very, very clear here. You seem to be barely able to read, and certainly not able to think very well. So I’ll run through it again.

Here’s what I’ve said about the ELM on this thread: “the ELM does not represent all Muslims – it is ONE mosque – relatively big, rich, powerful and reactionary – but it does not speak for all Muslims”.

I always feel I have to make the point here that the ELM doesn’t represent all Muslims because many leftists have made the mistake of identifying such conservative bodies as the only representative of Muslims. One of my interests is in the fact that both the British State and some parts of the left have recognised the same highly conservative religious and communitarian bodies as having the right to speak for ‘their communities’. (This point has been made by many others, one of whom is Chetan Bhatt in an article called ‘ Fetish of the Margins’ that I think I linked to the very first time I posted here about a year ago btw). Some people who read this blog don’t know Tower Hamlets and might not know that when the ELM says its speaking for the whole ‘Community’ many other Muslims often resent this.

I also said that homophobic speakers had been hosted there – a fact that is hardly in dispute. The context was that I was ridiculing Tony Collins’ idea that the answer was for victims of homophobia and Islamophobia to make alliances – sometime this is possible, other times it is not. The fact is you can be a victim and an oppressor. This is something you need to recognise about the EDL – a SWP colleage tried to tell me that they pretend to be tolerant but REALLY want to put gays in the gas chambers – well I’m sure some do, but I have no problem believing there could be a LGBT section of the EDL (we may be seeing its debut in TH). Not only is there no contradiction between being gay and being a bigot or a fascist but also as we know the type of nationalism that the EDL is constructing is all about how ‘the other’ does not share ‘our’ values of tolerance and equality etc.

Other than that I don’t think I’ve said anything more about the ELM or Muslims – I would prefer Marina doesn’t keep on about that when it’s been well covered on this blog. What I’ve said, repeatedly, is that Respect/Andy Newman tend to accuse everyone who disagrees with them of Islamophobia. I think that game is about up.

I’d really like to get more reactions about what people think about Respect endorsing massive cuts.

RachelQuote text Reply
JN on 7 March, 2011 at 10:01 pm said:

“If you look at the so-called “East End Gay Pride” website they have a prominent pink union jack on the website. The only organisation that flaunts the union jack is the BNP. I don’t think this is just a coincidence”

I don’t see any basis from that site on which to assume any connection with the BNP, EDL, or other racists. It does however say a lot of stuff like this:

“This demo is NOT an “Anti-Muslim” demo, or in fact an “Anti” anything demo. It is a “PRO-GAY” Demo. So please, no offensive banners or chanting that may offend people of any religious background”

and

“Finally, the argument that it should be ‘anti-Muslim’. This one amazes me. I don’t get it. I really don’t get it! Why should we make this demo ‘anti-Muslim’? … the fact is, nobody really knows WHO is putting them up, and what’s more,…….WHO CARES??? …what I do know is they must be told in no uncertain terms NO!!! We will not tolerate this!!”

“It’s saying to the people responsible for the stickers – “You’ve said this is a gay-free zone. Well, here we are, a bunch of gay people and our friends in your gay-free zone. So on that reckoning your ‘gay-free zone’ is a nonsense”.

That seems fair enough to me, though there are plenty of other points that I would disagree with (how the hell can a demo not be “political”, for a start?)

The ‘Pink News’ thread on the other hand is pretty shocking. The LGBT liberation of fools. You do not fight one stupid prejudice with another, unless you’re an idiot & a bigot.

JNQuote text Reply
Rachel on 7 March, 2011 at 10:02 pm said:

One last thing, sometimes I think I’d like to invite you and a few of your politer comrades on a tour of the Tower Hamlets where I live, work, and send my kids to school. You could lecture everyone on how wrong they are, or you might find out that, as I said above, Tower Hamlets Bengalis are generally far less conservative than Socialist Unity imagines.

RachelQuote text Reply
JN on 7 March, 2011 at 10:12 pm said:

“I also think the ‘East End Pride’ March and website look very dodgy”

Parts of it do read like they were written with some kind of stereotypical ‘stuff gay people like’ checklist in hand.

“The pink union jack is a disturbing symbol which fits perfectly with the EDL project”

Well, possibly but the British flag is not used solely by racists & fascists.

JNQuote text Reply
Rachel on 7 March, 2011 at 10:22 pm said:

Maybe those who put up the symbol aren’t themselves BNP or EDL but to me that pink flag immediately speaks of the EDL project of using gay and women’s rights to define a new ‘tolerant’ nationalism against those who are supposedly opposed such rights. I think that by now this would have been explained to them, so if they are insisting on that symbol I think that speaks volumes.

RachelQuote text Reply
BrokenWindow on 7 March, 2011 at 10:22 pm said:

121 JN,

you certainly do not fight one prejudice with another and that includes
homophobic hatred and anti-semitism from the ELM. Don’t bullshit about double
standards. The lies peddled are well-documented and part of a strategy by the
Islamists to gow their brand of intolerance and hatred; if you support this
vile filth then you are the same scum as the EDL and the ELM hardliners.
I’m not racist – both facists are scum.

BrokenWindowQuote text Reply
KrisS on 7 March, 2011 at 10:23 pm said:

The pink union jack has been around a few years. I hate it, but I wouldn’t necessarily see at as particularly suggestive of anything stronger than yer average patriotism type thing.

KrisSQuote text Reply
Ray on 7 March, 2011 at 10:30 pm said:

Rachel your anti-Muslim/anti-Respect propaganda is the only game that’s up. Backtracking won’t help – it just exposes a little more subtlety in your concern trolling.

On a more disturbing note I saw the so-called “anti-gay” leaflet posted on the East End Gay Pride. What strikes me about this leaflet is how incredibly informed it is about gay symbolism. Why would a homophobic group create an anti-gay leaflet with a large rainbow flag on it and use the word “gay”? Usually, religious homophobes call us “homosexuals” and when attacking us don’t use symbols popular in the LGBT community. It seems far too knowing as if it was designed by someone who is very familiar with what buttons to push.

Also, the East End Gay Pride organisers claim that the SWP and UAF approached them to ‘jump on board’. The fact that they are making these false claims highlights the dishonest nature of their agenda.

RayQuote text Reply
Ray on 7 March, 2011 at 10:39 pm said:

“The pink union jack has been around a few years. I hate it, but I wouldn’t necessarily see at as particularly suggestive of anything stronger than yer average patriotism type thing.”

Really? Show me a LGBT group/organisation that uses it? It’s one thing individuals waving it around on a demo where flag makers are trying to profit out of selling various “gay friendly” symbols but the organisers of this group have links with the EDL and are members of extreme nationalist sites. They claim to be “non-political” and say that all political symbols are banned on their march yet they are waving the union jack on their website.

RayQuote text Reply
Rachel on 7 March, 2011 at 10:44 pm said:

Ray, you will not find any anti-Muslim propaganda in anything I have written.

You will certainly find plenty of anti-Respect sentiment.

The two aren’t the same thing – that’s basically been my point every time I’ve posted over the last year.

Tony C suggested I should get over Respect and get a life – that may be a fair point. Calling me a racist or Islamophobe isn’t.

RachelQuote text Reply
KrisS on 7 March, 2011 at 11:09 pm said:

I meant as something you see at pride events, certainly not as something any organisation I know of uses as a logo.

KrisSQuote text Reply
JN on 7 March, 2011 at 11:17 pm said:

Ray,

“the organisers of this group have links with the EDL and are members of extreme nationalist sites.”

Could you elaborate on this?

JNQuote text Reply
JN on 7 March, 2011 at 11:45 pm said:

#131

Alright, in answer to my own question there is this:

http://lattelabour.blogspot.com/2011/03/east-end-gay-pride-update.html

And, of course, the idea that ANY political demonstration could be “non-political” is just absurd, if not dishonest.

JNQuote text Reply
Omar on 8 March, 2011 at 12:33 am said:

Thanks for that JN. Very revealing.

OmarQuote text Reply
Marina on 8 March, 2011 at 12:34 am said:

“The wrong approach as illustrated in this thread by rachel and marina, is to make out there is an inherent problem with one part of our community.”

I didn’t make out ‘there is a problem with one part our community’, I referred specifically to East London Mosque, which has indeed hosted a series of vile hate preachers. I don’t view ELM as representative of Muslims in general. It is relevant for two reasons:

1. In recent years it has been the most public platform for virulent homophobes in the East End.

2. Unfortunately Respect and some others on the left HAVE foolishly treated ELM as if it DOES represent Muslims. The flirtation with reactionary clerics by parts of the left has been as cynical and stupid as it was unnecessary.

The Respect supporters and swuppies are evidently uncomfortable because they like to portray themselves as anti-homophobia even they have sought out as allies in the Muslim community an institution with a horrible record of promoting homophobes. Well, you can’t do both and expect not to be criticised for it.

MarinaQuote text Reply
Ray on 8 March, 2011 at 2:16 am said:

“In Tower Hamlets, open EDL supporters are trying to get involved in organising an East End “gay pride rally” in which there is a real danger that Muslims, not homophobia, will be made the focus of people’s anger.”

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=24103

So much for the claim that the SWP or UAF approached the organisers of the East End Gay Pride. They are lying about this to try to legitimise their event and claim they are non-political when we know they have links to the EDL. It’s no coincidence that they are organising this event after Cameron attacked multiculturalism. It’s shameful that Labour in TH are trying to jump on Cameron’s racist bandwagon.

RayQuote text Reply
Ray on 8 March, 2011 at 2:29 am said:

“The flirtation with reactionary clerics by parts of the left has been as cynical and stupid as it was unnecessary.”

What’s cynical is your attempt to accuse Respect and the SWP of being homophobic for defending Muslims against racism. What a coincidence that these accusations of homophobia coincide with Cameron’s attack on multiculturalism and an EDL inspired “East End Gay Pride”. The FACT that homophobic attacks have fallen in TH and are lower than in non-Muslim boroughs makes your attempt to stir up an Islamophobic witchhunt all the more despicable. But I’m sure you won’t let facts get in the way of your prejudice.

RayQuote text Reply
Harsanyi_Janos on 8 March, 2011 at 2:34 am said:

“The FACT that homophobic attacks have fallen in TH and are lower than in non-Muslim boroughs makes your attempt to stir up an Islamophobic witchhunt all the more despicable. ”

The relevant statistic is the rate of homophobic attacks pre LGBT person.

It does little to compare the level of homophobic attacks across boroughs — since the LGBT population is not uniformly distributed across boroughs. It would be like pointing out that anti-immigrant attacks are lower in Kingston-on-Thames than in, say, Haringey and concluding that the people of Kingston are more liberal.

Of course, the rate might be lower in TH than elsewhere — I do not know. But it is important to use the facts that are useful.

Harsanyi_JanosQuote text Reply
Sarah AB on 8 March, 2011 at 6:10 am said:

I looked at the link to the blog about East End Gay Pride and thought the organiser’s comment ‘the EDL supports this event’ was problematic for two reasons’. First, even though I think the ELM has hosted offensive speakers, I agree that any protest against homophobia should strongly disassociate itself from the EDL/genuine Islamophobia – is this event making links with Muslim gay groups, for example? Secondly, it’s an illogical response to being asked whether the EDL might have put up the posters in the first place. It would be entirely consistent to fabricate ‘Islamist’ posters and then to support such a march. (NB I’m inclined to think they don’t seem to have been put up by the EDL but they might easily have been.)

But they *have* disclaimed any links with the EDL, so perhaps one should be open minded about it.

Yet, I see from looking them up on Google that they gave an interview to the Daily Star – haven’t read it though.

Sarah ABQuote text Reply
Rachel on 8 March, 2011 at 9:00 am said:

They also list the Daily Star as one of their (presumably financial) supporters.

I remember reading that a more official i.e. council sponsored Gay Pride event was being planned for September – wd like to hear from someone who knows about this – I presume that this (September) event would have been organised by a different group of people with many more local links.

RachelQuote text Reply
Andy Newman on 8 March, 2011 at 10:54 am said:

#122

Tower Hamlets Bengalis are generally far less conservative than Socialist Unity imagines.

I have no idea where Rachel gets this from or what she is talking about. I have never made any claims about how conservative or otherwise Bengalis in Tower Hamlets are; I should imagine there is a rich diversity.

However, I do know that the climate of Islamophobia undermines all Muslims; and that even progressive political figures like Lutfur Rahman and Abjol Miah are being slurred and libeled as being obscurantist extremists, which is simply a lie.

Andy NewmanQuote text Reply
Andy Newman on 8 March, 2011 at 10:58 am said:

#138

“even though I think the ELM has hosted offensive speakers”

This is a bit of lingusitic inflation.

As I understand it, basing my knowedlge on Peter Tatcell’s carefully worded press release, rooms in a building attached to the East London Mosque have been let out on a commercial basis to groups who have then used the facilities, and who have included speakers who have expressed homophobic views.

One could point out that this is not a unique issue for the Muslim community, and that Church of England and Catholic churches, for example, have homophobic preachers on their payroll.

Andy NewmanQuote text Reply
The Undertaker on 8 March, 2011 at 11:00 am said:

The attempt to invert the terms of resistance to oppression ie its the Left that is now ‘homphobic’ and the far right who are in favour of gay rights is not new but flows from the acknowledgement by the more astute sections of the far right/fascist groups that the gains made in making overt racism ,sexism and homophobia unpopular could not easily be reversed.
In the 20′s and early 30′s the Nazis of course tried to usurp the symbols of the workers movement in Germany even going as far as to call themselves ‘socialists.
It explains the dropping of the 3 H’s by Griffin and the move towards what has become known as Eurofascism .suited not booted
Ever keen to find a way to develop division and to find a means of promoting racism ( even whilst denying that it is racism) they have in recent years adopted a more nuanced approach.
On the issue of race they refer to ‘culture’ they claim they are against ‘oppressive religions’they state being against Islam is not racist as Islam is not a race etc After years of demanding repatriation for black people they now demand that they assimilate into the majority culture by accepting that their culture is inferior.From desecrating Jewish cemeteries they now fly the Star of David
After years of spouting and practicing the most virulent Homophobia they now become ‘defenders of gay rights,out has gone references to ‘womenfolk’ and in has come a mock concern for the oppression of women.
It is vile and offensive, we should never forget ( and they would wish us to ) that the gains made by LGBT people came about because of the struggle of the left and in most cases the far left. That the struggle for women’s liberation was intertwined with the struggle for workers rights ,for better pay and ultimately for a better ie Socialist society.
In the 60′s ,70′s and 80′s when the far left were marching against racism,for gay rights and for women’s liberation the far right were engaging in racist attacks,ridiculing feminists and going ‘queer bashing’
Nazi nail bomber David Copeland embodied there REAL viwe on these matters.
So to those who come on here and use the cover of being opposed to homphobia as a pretext for their racism should know we will not let them get away with it,because unlike them we know the fight against oppression requires the unity of ALL the oppressed whatever their colour,religion, gender or sexuality

The UndertakerQuote text Reply
Rachel on 8 March, 2011 at 11:38 am said:

140 “Tower Hamlets Bengalis are generally far less conservative than Socialist Unity imagines”.

What I mean by this is that you often to speak of Muslims as a monolithic block with particular interests and even politics and don’t question the right of highly conservative spokesmen to speak for the ‘community’. But many members of ‘the community’ don’t feel represented by these power brokers.

There is indeed a rich diversity in Tower Hamlets. I could introduce you to many of Muslims who don’t share the view that say, Abjol Miah is a progressive figure, and who are also aware that therefore they might not be considered ‘authentic’ enough by your bit of the left.

I do appreciate that you have pulled back from your accusations about me. I am not about using one oppressed group as a stick to beat another or about promoting a competition between oppressed groups and I have never suggested or insinuated that ‘Muslims’ are more inclined towards homophobia than any other group. Actually I don’t hear others on this thread saying that either at the moment.

In fact nobody here except you and Ray seem to be having the conversation that you think you’re having.

RachelQuote text Reply
Rachel on 8 March, 2011 at 11:39 am said:

Oh sorry the Undertaker is having that conversation too.

RachelQuote text Reply
LBTH on 8 March, 2011 at 11:45 am said:

#139, Rachel, yes – from Agenda for 2 February 2011, Meeting of Tower Hamlets Council, Question 6.1:

“A Pride March for East London in 2011

The group Out East is working to establish solidarity and build community among people who identify as Lesbian, Queer, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender or who are questioning issues about sexuality or gender identity in Tower Hamlets, Hackney and Newham. Thus in the face of homophobic prejudice and hate crimes, it is the group’s intention to have a Pride March from Hackney into Tower Hamlets late this summer and we would like to end the march with an event in Victoria Park, it [is] expected to be less than 2000 people for under three hours on a Saturday afternoon. We ask the Mayor to help facilitate this with the use of the park [and to] show his support for this campaign against all hate crimes and in solidarity with the diverse communities of our borough.”

This is the other Council meeting that Councillor Saunders is declaring ‘overshadowed by homophobia’.

I recall that this meeting was overshadowed by technical problems. The microphones played up for a long time which meant the Chair, who had to persist, and other speakers sounded Dalek-like. Then the allegations started.

LBTHQuote text Reply
Rachel on 8 March, 2011 at 11:48 am said:

So how was it left? Will there be an event?

RachelQuote text Reply
Andy Newman on 8 March, 2011 at 11:51 am said:

#143

What I mean by this is that you often to speak of Muslims as a monolithic block with particular interests and even politics and don’t question the right of highly conservative spokesmen to speak for the ‘community’. But many members of ‘the community’ don’t feel represented by these power brokers.

I really don’t, except in the technical sense that there is only one Ummah, and many diverse ways of being a Muslim all of which are acceptable to Allah.

Community spokespeople shoudl not be reagrded as having more authority than they really have; but neither shoudl they be disregarded as having less infleunce than they have; and I know from expereince that their own perception of their own influence is exaggerated.

However, moving forwards to a more tolerant multicultural society means having a dialogue including those who have conservative social views. There are plenty of Christians who have broadly prgressive politics but are conservarive on social issues; i don’t see why Muslims should be held to a different standard.

Andy NewmanQuote text Reply
LBTH on 8 March, 2011 at 12:00 pm said:

Looks like it as it is now “Action by: Stephen Halsey, Corporate Director, Communities, Localities and Culture” from the online Agenda (no Minutes yet.) Should have said above that there was laughter as the microphones could not be fixed and this is when this (first) allegation was made by the councillor. About the laughter.

LBTHQuote text Reply
Andy Newman on 8 March, 2011 at 12:01 pm said:

#142

t is vile and offensive, we should never forget ( and they would wish us to ) that the gains made by LGBT people came about because of the struggle of the left and in most cases the far left. That the struggle for women’s liberation was intertwined with the struggle for workers rights ,for better pay and ultimately for a better ie Socialist society.

I remember an amusing anecdote of former SWP and GLF activist L**nel St**ling being abused at UNISON conference some years back and told that it was socialists like him who were setting back the cause of LGBT rights, at which point L**nel pointed out that it was actually him who moved the first ever motion on LGBT rights at NALGO conference in the 1970s, to a wall of hostility; and if it hadn’t been for radical socialists like him, from the GLF but also in the left groups, then no-one would have broken the silence on the issue.

Andy NewmanQuote text Reply
Rachel on 8 March, 2011 at 12:12 pm said:

“However, moving forwards to a more tolerant multicultural society means having a dialogue including those who have conservative social views. There are plenty of Christians who have broadly progressive politics but are conservative on social issues; i don’t see why Muslims should be held to a different standard”.

No argument there, except that I believe that most Muslims in Britain may be actually be less socially conservative than you think.

What people should know about TH Respect is that it speaks for people who are MORE socially conservative than the average local Bengali Muslim, so claims to express the views of the ‘Muslim community’ are not surprisingly met by many people, Muslim and non, with some scepticism.

But I’d like to get off this topic, because my relation to Respect is different now that they are no longer in opposition but rather actively involved in pushing through the cuts in the borough.

LBTH thanks for that information. I hope that the march (September, not April) happens.

RachelQuote text Reply
Omar on 8 March, 2011 at 1:52 pm said:

#143
“Actually I don’t hear others on this thread saying that either at the moment.”
Well then read Marina’s posts more closely.

OmarQuote text Reply
Ray on 8 March, 2011 at 2:01 pm said:

“Of course, the rate might be lower in TH than elsewhere — I do not know. But it is important to use the facts that are useful.”

There is nothing ambiguous about these facts. The majority of homophobic attacks are perpetuated by young white men. Police figures show that attacks in TH have fallen and are less in boroughs with large Muslim populations. Therefore if you want to help LGBT’s then focus on the people who are actually perpetuating these attacks rather than scapegoating the Muslim community. It’s really very simple.

The scapegoating of Muslims is reminiscent of the racist stereotyping of young black men who were scapegoated as muggers in the 1980′s when in fact most street crime was carried out by young white men. Young black men were in fact much more likely to be the victims of crime.

Anyone who is an anti-racist should be able to see through this racist scapegoating and argue for unity. Especially at a time when the government and the far right are trying to use racism to undermine the campaign against the spending cuts.

RayQuote text Reply
LBTH on 16 March, 2011 at 5:54 pm said:

The East End Gay Pride March, referred to above, has now been cancelled.

Imaan, the LGBTQI Muslim Support Group, discovered that an organiser of EEGP was linked to the EDL.

Imaan press release on EEGP:

http://www.imaan.org.uk/

Imaan have “a dossier of evidence of right wing and fascistic associations amongst the organisers, which has been painstakingly collected by Imaan and other concerned community groups and will be part of a complete community publication expected to be ready for release on Thursday March 17.”

LBTHQuote text Reply
JAck on 7 April, 2011 at 10:46 am said:

ray 150, Most street cirme was carried out in the 80′s by young white men ,but thats not thee same as street robbery and that dones’nt take into aocunt that there were alot more white people per popuation (esecially in the 80′s)and that it was mainly working class areas street robbery took place

JAckQuote text Reply
Harlequin on 2 June, 2011 at 10:54 pm said:

I see Kevin Ovenden’s post near the start of this thread that claimed:

“As for the anti-gay stickers that went up: many local gay activists saw this as a black-ops campaign by either the EDL or similar forces”

has mysteriously vanished, as has his claim to be ‘relaxed’ about the matter.

In any case, we now know there has been a conviction, that Rainbow Hamlets were misled, and that those who tried to dismiss the poster as being a case of Islamophobic black ops rather than straightforward homophobia were talking bollocks. The kindest thing one can say is that they were naive.

Perhaps in future they’ll stop filtering their treatment of homophobia through considerations of other political issues and treat it seriously enough as an issue in itself, regardless of whether the fascists have white skins or brown ones, and stop hurling dishonest accusations of racism at those who insist on this.

HarlequinQuote text Reply
Paul on 3 September, 2011 at 4:46 pm said:

Just read some of the drivel on here, if you lot in tower hamlets, respect party in particular are spending time and money on an issue like this you must have more money than sense, Muslim dominated must mean absolutley no fun, joy or pleasure where you are concerned, god help us, Racists would target people of a different race would they not, Islamaphobia is against Muslims, not race. can you imagime someone comming up with a brand new fashion called the Burkha, do you think it would catch on? NO. OK, lets go for some colourful clothing, all black will look good.
Lets keep women in the house cooking and child minding while we blokes have a great time out and about, smoking, dressing as we please, what a life.

PaulQuote text Reply

Posted by Andy Newman on 2 March, 2011

Category

Islamophobia, LGBT, Tower Hamlets

154 thoughts on “Tower Hamlets: “homophobia Row” over Budget Meeting”